Hyper issues.

[tdswan]

Alright, I know it's a rarity for me to have a question on here, but where better to ask it than among friends.
I'm posting a couple of pics of my O.S. 50 Hyper that I just got done opening up. It's not very pretty.
I've been noticing excess filings accumulating on the bottom plate of my Raptor.
Keep in mind that this engine has taken me from learning to hover up to the point I'm at now.
After break-in, not knowing at first how to tune it (being a nube at the time) I ran it too lean for some time before having my eyes opened to the world of engine tuning.
I only recently noticed some power loss. It looks like some debris got into the cylinder somehow, but I can't imagine something this big getting in there to do this kind of damage.

I'll post them one at a time so they all show up in the post.

[tdswan]

Here's the inside of the head.

[tdswan]

The backplate (inside view)

[tdswan]

A peek inside the exhaust port.

[blax1]

Hello Td
I'm in the automotive trade, the only time you see indentation and marks like that is when something has usually let go (that’s stating the obvious) in 4 stroke motors it is usually intake or exhaust valves that drop off due to over revving or incorrect mixtures etc, but from these photos (which are huge) it appears to have been running far to lean and she has seized up, sending shaving and debris (probably swarf like you get from a lathe)from the piston skirt up into the combustion chamber, its amazing she didn’t lock up, It probably would have, if kept using it she would have self destructed , I’m not a nitro expert but I expect they are similar to any two stroke motor and they have transfer ports from the crankcase so the fuel acts as bottom end lubricant as well, Is that so??
Can you rebuild her? Or buy a new one? A mate of mine has a chainsaw shop, he see’s a lot of saw’s that have nipped up, because there were running lean in the first place, but then people run them out of fuel at high RPM on a hot day and they nip up, just like your hyper has . :(
That’s my 2 bob’s worth; I will be interested in the outcome
Cheers Ralph

[heli-cuzz]

Surprisingly, it didn't seize up. Good timing on the breakdown. :)

I have a friend that mods engines, gonna show him the pics to hear what he has to say. :cool:

How many gallons through it?

[vapochilled]

from my fixed wing days, I'd say running to hot(lean) new piston/liner, clean the head up gently with a fine file and you will save the engine.
The marks on the backplate look ok, certainly not unusual

[cbflys]

That looks like bearing fragments. Did you check the bearings? Make sure the cages and balls are still all there and where they're supposed to be.

[Shinanigans]

d00d, what camera do you use?

Mine can't get half that close without going out of focus! :mad:

[tdswan]

OK....Lots of great answers. I'm betting as well that once I get a look at the bearings it should answer some questions. That's the only thing I can think of that would possibly put that much debris into the engine. The strange thing is that at tear-down, there wasn't any debris in there at all. This leads me to believe it happened last summer when I was running lean. I'm going to try to shake out the muffler tonight. It's possible some of it got caught in there if it's designed at all like a plane muffler.
Blax, you are correct, the intake port goes through the crank case to lube it. Good ideas. I had a couple of over-heat flame-outs last summer. I guess it may have siezed then. That's what prompted me to look at my mixture. :o The piston sleeve doesn't even look scored.
Heli-Cuzz, to answer your question, there are lots and lots of gallons through it. :p At least 13-15 last summer and I haven't been keeping track this summer. I've got my money's worth out of it, so I'm not overly heartbroke about this one.
Shinanigans, to answer your question, I'm using a Minolta D-Image Z1. It's got a macro function on it, so I can almost take a picture of something right in front of the lens. It's nice for this type of stuff. :D

[jschief]

Tdswan,
Your hyper looks the same as mine did when I ran it lean, but the debri was from broken top ring land. I replaced the piston, piston ring, and hyper head and everything runs fine.

Check that the head bolts do not loosen up, this is what caused my lean condition and flame out. I also heard the bearings do not last long in the OS engines, so if you have alot of flights on the motor a bearing change will not hurt.

[Nitroburner31]

I agree it looks like a bearing came apart also if you elect to rebuild it tear it completely down and inspect the crankcase and crankshaft if the case is badly grooved scored or in the case of the crankshaft discolored (blue marks) exc replace the case and the same goes for the crankshaft the swirle pattern on the back plate looks to be wear caused by the big end of the rod rubbing on the back plate as it runs whitch happens normaly Hope this helps (Nitro)

[tdswan]

Hey all. I didn't have time to tear the crank apart last night, but I did look at it to see if it had any play in it. The shaft does have a bit of play in it, so I'm sure that's what the problem is. Now it's time to decide whether it's worth rebuilding or just getting a new one. With the cost of parts, I'll probably have more than $100 in it when I can get a new one for $140 and a warranty. I've had my eye on the new Evolution 52 anyway. I had good luck with them in my fixed wing days.

[cbflys]

Troy,

Doesn't OS have a 2 year warranty? You may want to give that a try if you're going to toss the engine anyway.

Chuck

[Nitroburner31]

Yeah thats the big problem with rebuilds these days. With the current pricing on engines compaired to the cost of a rebuild "ie" Bearings, piston,pistion ring, con rod (if needed) and liner, it amounts to almost the cost of a new engine *shrugs* so to most people its a no brainer. Also Cbflys has a point if its under 2 years old you may be able to lay your hands on a new one give great planes a call and see what they say. cya all and happy flying (Nitro)

[tdswan]

I've just decided to put the TT Pro 50 that came with it in for now.
I've torn it down a little more, but still haven't got that darn fan off.
Here's a pic of the piston and liner. The lip that holds the ring in was sequeezed down onto the ring.
The ring practically crumbled when I took it off.

[tdswan]

Now, If I could just get that darn fan off, I'd be ready to drop it in. :mad:

[cbflys]

From Kyosho's web-site ...

Clutch Shaft Removal (All Caliber Series) -
The easiest way to remove the clutch on the Caliber series helicopters is to first remove the clutch bell and reinstall the starter shaft screws tightly. This is important as you will use them as a removal device. Next remove the backing plate on the motor and place a wooden dowel or soft plastic toothbrush in the hole in the crankshaft so the engine can’t turn past center due to the connecting rod hitting the dowel. If you have a factory installed engine there has been loctite added during the installation of the clutch shaft therefore it will be easier if you use a torch to heat up the clutch shaft so it spins off with less effort. Once you have heated up the clutch shaft you need to use either an adjustable wrench of a set of pliers on the shaft where the bolts are installed to grip and turn the shaft off. If this is done correctly you will not damage any components. If you use pliers make sure to grip only the bolts so you do not damage the clutch shaft or you may have difficulty reinstalling the clutch bell. You should not use the fan hex start bolt to remove the shaft as it can spin loose inside the fan housing and then no longer function to start the helicopter therefore requiring a replacement.

I'm not sure if this applies to the Raptor - but it has some good tips.

[tdswan]

I may have to use a torch on the fan if I can't get it by other means. The fan is plastic, though. I'd have to be careful not to melt it and still get the aluminum hub warm ennough. I've got Tri-Flow on it right now. It seems to break down the loctite in there. Hopefully it will penetrate far enough for me to loosen it.

[tdswan]

114 STINKIN' DOLLARS in parts for this thing. That's piston, sleeve, rear bearing, ring and the wrist pin retainer clips (just in case). What a crock! Looks like I'll be flying the TT engine for a while.

[heli-cuzz]

Damn td, that piston is toast.

[tdswan]

What's really scary is that it flew right up to that point! The side towards the camera is the bad side, the rest of it is in great shape. All that happened around the exhaust port. :eek:

[superflyer]

Im Surpried it dident sezie up. Is this the fisrt time you opend it up?

[tdswan]

Here's the culprit. You can see a small piece of the carrier for the bearing came out and the bearing is definately toast. It looks like it got quite hot by the coloring around the races. Anyone ever press one of these out? I'm betting I'm going to want to use the oven, huh?

[superflyer]

So is it time for a new engine for you? Or are you ging to attemp a repair?

Superflyer

[tdswan]

It's really not worth the price. $114 for parts and a re-built engine, or $150 for a new one and a new warranty. I'm doubting O.S. will warranty this.

[jschief]

Even if you do not repair the motor, if you need to remove the bearings buy a toaster oven at a rummage sale if you see one. I bought one for 3 dollars and works fine for removing the bearings. Better than sticking the motor in your regular oven unless you do not mind a little nitro taste to your food :D .

[inspectortag]

Nitro taste in my food ? :cool: :cool: :cool:

[blax1]

Its not my money!! So its easy to spend!! But I would buy a new one :)

[heli-cuzz]

New engine, that one has seen its day. :cool:

[Nitroburner31]

Thats what i use i've got a old black and decker toaster oven in my shop just for that purpose:) Anyway i get the case hot enough to require a rag or something to handle it then i use a nylon rod to gently push the bearings out. i replaced the rear bearing in my hyper with a ceramic bearing from boca bearing and so far have had good luck with it. (Nitro)

[tdswan]

I'll not be needing the toaster oven this time. I'm trashing it. I've already got the TT Pro 50 in there now. I just got done adjusting the throttle linkage and end points. At least this time I'll know how to tune it from the start. Now I'll probably be stuck with it forever. :( It's gotta have more power than that tired old Hyper....well at least at the end of it's life! I just wish I could cram that Hyper carb on there....believe me, I tried! :rolleyes:

[blax1]

Good decision I reckon!!! :cool: If you had’ve re-built that old motor it may have written off the whole heli- next time it failed :eek: Td, Is it possible for you guys to run-in (bed in) your nitro engines on a bench instead of in the heli-and then install them pre-tuned and reasonably fail safe ?

[Felony44]

Well i know what TD is asking for , for Christmas :D

[tdswan]

Is it possible for you guys to run-in (bed in) your nitro engines on a bench instead of in the heli-and then install them pre-tuned and reasonably fail safe ?

Some planker guys run them in on a bench. I've heard people ask the question before in other heli forums, but I can't remember why it's not a good idea or possible. I think it's because you can't bolt a prop onto the output shaft to put a load on it, but I'm not positive. I think all you'd need is the prop-type spacer to do it, but good luck finding one for a heli engine. Maybe someone else knows on here or someone may already does it.

Personally, I LOVE all the oil that gets all over when you're breaking it in pig rich, doesn't everyone? :rolleyes:

[jschief]

You can still break a heli engine on the bench, you can find a prop to fit. Heli engines stay at a pretty high rpm all the time compare to motor used on plankers. This helps heli engines break in quicker. Just take it easy for a couple of tanks on a fresh engine.

Heli flyers are about flying not spinning our motors on a bench. :D

I will take your old hyper off your hand tswan if you want to sell it. :)

[tdswan]

Make me an offer, Chief. You see the pictures, there's not much i can hide :D .

[Helifino]

Although I'm not into nitro(yet) I thought this was a great thread td. I learned a good bit from it. You also did an excellent job on the photos. Thanks for sharing it.

You missed your calling as a photographer! :D

[heli-cuzz]

I just finished my 9th gallon on my hyper50. No signs of discolored fuel residue. I'm gonna tear it down and check everything closely.

[tdswan]

You missed your calling as a photographer! :D

Thanks, Helifino. Although it's not my best work, I did have some schooling in photography (man, that's a tough one to type) :p .

Heli-Cuzz, that's a good idea. They come apart so easily that it's almost a crime not to check in the off season. I'm sure your mixture's fine so you'll probably be alright. My problems have been with me since last summer, I can't believe it ran that long like that! :eek: The guys at the field always mentioned how much "different" mine sounded than theirs.

As for the TT Pro 50, it runs sooooooooooooo much better than my hyper did. I can't believe what a difference it makes. Not that it would beat a Hyper in good shape, but from what I was running before to a fresh engine, it's just amazing! Got 4 tanks through the TT 50 and I'm going to start leaning it out on the next probably, but not as much as I did on the Hyper!

[superflyer]

Cool! When you get some vids of us post them on here!

[heli-cuzz]

Awesome your TT is running good for you. Awhile back I decided to check the engine internals after every 10 gallons of fuel, also while disassembled, my friend will balance the crankshaft.
td, I always run rich for the first gallon, then start leaning it to the engine's true potential.

[tdswan]

Oh, I'm not leaning it out to where I'll be running it, right now I've got it so rich that it's just barbling and the transition is terrible right now. I just want to get half-way there for now so I'm not worried about it flooding while I'm flying. Is this rich enough for ya?

[heli-cuzz]

lol

:)

[blax1]

ROTFLMAO :D

[vapochilled]

you need to catch that exhaust liquid in a tray. you could probably run it through the engine again,lol :D

[tdswan]

LOL.....Yeah I figured ou guys would get a kick out of that, so I snapped a pic quick while I was idling it. :p There's probably a ton of unused fuel in there!

[superflyer]

Wow thats alot!

[heli-cuzz]

It almost looks like an ice patch :cool:

[superflyer]

at least your not running the new 1 to rich! LOL

[jschief]

Hey tdswan,

I have put new bearings in the hyper 50, and flew the heli for the first time today. Everything seems to be good, ran 3 tanks thru it today. The weather was 31 degrees and no wind, just a little snow to contend with.

My tip of the day is watch out having white rotor blades and flying around snow, the blades are virtually invisible. :eek:

[tdswan]

LOL! I did that last winter after making some adjustments to my Raptor! Hovered it in the driveway on the snow, then walked up to stop the blades. Luckily they weren't going fast enough to damage anything, just fast enough to make me say owie! :p
Glad to hear my Hyper's alive again, Chief!
I hope it brings you lots of luck!

[heli-cuzz]

It's Alive!!!

Thats awesome js, resurrected td's ol' hyper. Job well done. :cool:

[jschief]

What is weird is the hyper idles at alot smaller throttle opening than my other hyper. Linkage has not changed. I just wonder if better bearings make a difference, I bought the ceramic bearings.

[tdswan]

It's gotta be something that I did to it ;) .

Ya know, I noticed on the TT 50 I replaced it with, I had to bump the idle up A LOT. It may be just from running it rich to start or the colder weather now. I knew there'd be drastic changes to the throttle curve, but I never dreamed the idle would be so different. Maybe I want it back now :p .

[cbflys]

I'm sure you guys already know this - but the idle mixture screw on the Hyper's carb is EXTREAMLY sensitive. Move it a hair and you'll notice a big difference.