Dan's Schluter Superior Restoration

[Dan]

This project involves taking the first RC helicopter I had that did fly, unlike my Super Heli-Baby, my Schluter Superior, getting it flying again and understanding the differences between it, a 1980's design, and todays helicopters. When I did this build originally it cost me about $4,000.00. I found the receipt for the "mechanics" and they were $586.00 plus tax. The mechanics are the metal parts and don't include the body shell (or Canopy), electronics mounting platforms (later to be made of wood), any electronics or the engine. That is almost the same cost as a new T-Rex 600 Nitro but the T-Rex would include the electronics mounting surfaces, blades, battery, regulator, canopy and a few other items depending on the kit you bought. Most prices have more than doubled in the last 25 years so not a lot of people were building RC helicopters. I had no business spending the money I did on this project. At the time it was half the down payment on a house.

I bought the best radio available at the time and the whole package, including the gyro, that I have here is the same package that won the nationals, first and second place in 1984. So we will be looking at the best of the best keeping in mind that to be the best of the best in 1984 you had to role, loop and hover inverted and do it all smoothly.

[Dan]

This is the box that the "Mechanics" came in. Notice it says 2 Kartons. I don't have the second Karton but I think it had the canopy halves and the wood servo, radio tray parts. If anyone out there knows any better just chime in. As with my Heli-Baby build I'm not an authority on this, just a guy with limited memory doing my best.

[Dan]

The box was much smaller than the Heli-Baby box and it does not say what is inside. The only thing that says what is inside is the tape on the box.

[Dan]

The helicopter is fully built and has a good 40 flights on it. It also has 3 minor crashes on it. There is damage but the last time I flew it, in 1992, I did not have a crash and it was flying with all of the damage you will see here.

[Dan]

There are 3 areas that need repair, the most serious and hardest to fix being the tail boom. I'm going to take apart only one section of the helicopter at a time and then re-install it before moving on to the next area. That way I won't get mixed up and I won't need to have different trays for each section of the heli. Here is the tail boom damage. This was caused by a main blade strike because of landing tail first. I'll get into the dampening on the head and the reasons this can happen when I take the head apart but the dampening on this head is very different than todays helicopters.

[Dan]

Here is another picture showing where this damage is. It is between the horizontal fin and the vertical fin, The tip of the main blade did this damage. The dent is almost to the drive shaft wire and the boom has about a 3 degree bend at that point. It flew once with that damage but I don't think I could have gotten away with it too many times.

[Dan]

There are 4 holes in the top of the tail boom. Each hole lines up with a bushing that guides the drive shaft wire. They get oiled every 3 hours of flight time. One of the bushings is between the end of the boom and the damage. I used a piece of plastic push rod to push a bushing that was in the way out of the end of the boom by inserting it into the oiling hole. I measured the bushing and it was 71/100 of an inch.

[Dan]

I purchased a 3/4 inch oak dowel and milled it down from 75/100 of an inch to 71/100 of an inch. I don't have a lathe but I was able to use my Dremel and sand paper and in about an hour it was done.

[Dan]

I then took the dowel and boom outside and tapped the dowel on the cement until the wood dowel was 4 inches pasted the damaged area. I needed vise grips on the dowel to spin the dowel out of the boom but I was able to hold the boom from turning with my hands. The boom came out perfectly straight.

[Dan]

The radio that is installed is top of the line 1980 - 1984. I was able to charge the batteries in the transmitter and in the flight pack. The system worked fine but the batteries went dead in only a few minutes after charging all night.

[Dan]

The flight pack battery is not a problem. The one installed is a 1200mAh 4.8 volt “C” cell and weighs 3.7 ounces.

[Dan]

I have this replacement battery that is 2500 mAh 4.8 volts “AA” cells and it weighs 0.8 ounces. That shows you how far NiCad batteries have come in the last 25 years.

[Dan]

The transmitter battery is a different story. It is a 500 mAh 9.6 volt battery but it appears to be made out of 9 “AAA” cells and that would equal 10.8 volts. It is assembled flat so I imagine that one of the cells is a dummy. It slides into a very narrow slot at the bottom of the radio.

[Dan]

The radio is in perfect condition and making a new battery pack for it would not be difficult. It has what had to be an incredible advancement in RC Helicopters at the time, a 3 point pitch curve that you set with 3 pots on the back of the radio. You can see there are a lot of adjustments and this radio with this helicopter won a lot of contests. However I don’t think I’m going to use it.

[Dan]

My main reason for not using it is that it is FM 72.550 MHz. It’s not that I have anything against FM radios but I fly on Long Island where we have sometimes over 100 pilots at the field taking turns flying 5 at a time. They run a really tight ship with the impound booth but still people make mistakes and every once in a while a plane or helicopter goes down because someone turned on a radio. I have never had a problem because I didn’t start flying there until I had my DX7 and only because of where I’m flying I’m going to change the receiver. I’m also going to change the gyro because the mechanical one that is in it uses so much battery power that it limits how much flying you can do. It also can’t hold a stick to a GY401.

[Dan]

The servos work perfectly and were very high end when I purchased them. My only thought is to change the tail servo to a matched digital one so that I can run the Gyro in digital mode. I’ll think about that for a while as I work this project. I plugged my JR servos into the AR7000 receiver and they work fine.

I’m wondering if I’m not making a mistake here. At 25 years old anyone of these servos could fail on the first flight. I think I’ll go ahead and change them all.

[schluterdude]

come on, use the original gyro! i have an old JR unit in mine! wuss! just kidding...

lookin' good though man! btw, heli-max carbon blades work pretty good on these. the heli-star and superior are half way close cousins (the superior being superior to the heli-star) in the evolutionary chain. the helimax blades are WAY skinnier in the chord than the stock woodies, but, again, 20+ years of airfoil research goes a long way! the thickness is also allot thinner, so, use the spacers included with the blade, and you'll also have to drill the bushing slightly larger for the bolt to pass through. but, it's worth the effort, and they're only about 50 bucks for a set. not bad! and, since i doubt you'll go absolutely nuts flying the bird, they should be fine and dandy for flyin' around, loops, rolls, etc. i still have yet to build up the testicular fortitude to "wring out" the heli-star.... i just need to grow a pair..

[vermonster]

I’m also going to change the gyro because the mechanical one that is in it uses so much battery power that it limits how much flying you can do. It also can’t hold a stick to a GY401.

hold it! mechanical gyro as in spinning wheel type?

[Dan]

Schluterdude, I need blades but don't understand the full science of them. I also didn’t realize the Heli-Star was a 60 size helicopter. I thought it was a 40 size like the Heli-Baby. The blades on the Superior are 600MM from the screw hole to the tip and 50 MM wide. They are flat bottomed. There is only about 25MM clearance between the main blades and the tail rotor so I can’t go much longer. I’m at a loss at picking the blades because as soon as you go symmetrical lift is produced under the blade counteracting some of the lift over the blade. You need to be able to counteract this with pitch but the Superior doesn’t have plus or minus 11 degrees of pitch movement like a modern helicopter. Does one of your books cover this and make suggestions or can anyone else help?

[Dan]

hold it! mechanical gyro as in spinning wheel type?


That's the type. It is in 2 parts. The square box contains a motor driven gyroscope. When you turn it on you can here it start spinning. It has its own on off switch so you don’t kill the battery while you are doing other testing. The pot to adjust the sensitivity is remote so it can be out side of the canopy in order to make adjustments. It was very expensive and didn’t work all that well. I seem to remember holding pressure on the rudder stick most of the time I was flying.

[vermonster]

you will love this quote. From Len Sabato's web site. enjoy :D

Although my interest at the time was purely” business related” the first several flights with my Kraft Gyro equipped Schluter Mini Boy was all it took to get me hooked permanently!


http://www.lensabato.com/biographypage.htm

[vermonster]

That's the type. The pot to adjust the sensitivity is remote so it can be out side of the canopy in order to make adjustments. It was very expensive and didn’t work all that well. I seem to remember holding pressure on the rudder stick most of the time I was flying.

I've read about that type of gyro. This type has a "stick priority" system which meant that the sensitivity of the gyro is reduced when it senses a rudder input.

[Dan]

I've read about that type of gyro. This type has a "stick priority" system which meant that the sensitivity of the gyro is reduced when it senses a rudder input.


It did something. I was flying from the first day I tried it, it was a huge improvement over no gyro but it didn't hold well. I guess that is relative. It held great compared to no gyro. It worked for me when I first lifted off and hovered, but when I would pick-up speed and turn it would spin 180 degrees. Most of the flight time I have on it is me flying slow less than 12 feet high. That both me and the gyro could handle.

[schluterdude]

i had that same gyro in my kalt baron. the key to getting the gyro to work properly is in your headspeed. if you can set your pitch curve and throttle curve to that "sweet spot" where the head speed stays reasonable constant, it works ok, but not great. also, revo mixing is key. hi/lo curves (ie. one curve for below half stick, one for above) is ideal, but a single curve kinda gets the job done. i have to take pics of the gyro i have in my schluter, it's a JR NEJ-100 unit, and it was state of the art back then. it has a high and low setting, both with adjustable gain, selectable from the transmitter, and a seperate neutral adjust that you set on a bench via a pot right on the gyro, pretty sweet. the tail on my heli-star is as close to rock solid as these old spinning wheel units can get. but, again, it took me damn near a full gallon of fuel to set the throttle/pitch/revo curves along with the gyro gain. set your revo up FIRST with the gyro turned OFF. i know, sounds hairy... but, if you set your tail so that there's approx 5-7 deg of pitch in the tail blades to start off with, you're half way there. do that mechanically, with all levers and servo connections at 90 deg.

the superior and helistar are very simmilar birds, the main difference being the canopy, some of the wood work, the head unit, and some minor things. the head on the superior was actually an upgrade part for the heli-star, as it bolts right on. the tail case on yours is also slightly different, but, mainly for asthetics i think.

i put 550 mm blades on my schluter, which are shorter than the original, but seem to work good enough. i could go longer, probably up to 600 mm, but, these are what they had in stock, so i'll live. don't worry about the airfoil, it still works. i know, it seems counter intuitive, but, remember, when you start to change the incidence (pitch) of the blade, you are also changing the way air flows around it to "make" it lift you up. you don't need +/- 11 degrees of pitch. right now i'm set up around -3 to +9, with the headspeed around 1600 or so. i know allot of people may get upset without all the fancy numbers and exact amounts, but, these later schluter heads, as far as pitch, actually change between the bench and in the air due to the "unique" dampening system, and the "split axle" set-up they have. if you put on a pitch gage, read the pitch, and then lift the edge of the blad up approx 1/4 inch, the pitch will change! the set-up instructions will tell you all about it, assuming you still have them. if not, i can send you a copy of the ones that came with my heli-star, and they should get you real close to start with.

oh, in my huge rant, i forgot the part number, its HMXE4310 for the blades... sorry.....

remember, as far as set-up, allot of it is feel once you finally get to the field. if it doesn't feel right, it isn't, so change it. my pitch and throttle curves are completely different from the bench set-up! i could figure them out, but, i fiddle with them a little every time i go out to see if i can get her just that much better! numbers are good for the bench to get you started, then, it's seat of the pants man!

also, nice job straightening out your boom!!! i gotta do that to mine still since it still has a scar from when my dad flew her..

also, ray's heli-manual will be a big help for set-ups and tips. he loved the old schluters! i used allot of his set-up rather than schluter's own advice and went from there. ALLOT of info in there about the heli-stars and superiors and champions!

oh yeah, one more thing... yes, the heli-star is a .60 size which is why i started writing in the first place... man, i rant allot...

[Dan]

WOW, Schluterdude are you drinking espresso? Thank you for all of the information. I thought the reply would be

"Yes the Heli-Star is a .60 size helicopter and the model number for the blades I use is HMXE4310"

When my wife drinks espresso I ask her how she is and after 20-30 minutes she passes out because she is not inhaling enough.

[blax1]

When my wife drinks espresso I ask her how she is and after 20-30 minutes she passes out because she is not inhaling enough.

LOL--- I see we are back at the pool table.
Nice one Dan, looking forward to seeing this one fly as well.....Enjoy, I am :)

Ralph

[J-Heli]

This build is really going to be informative especially for me because the heli technology that I know about is sitting on a shelf in my room in the form of a T-Rex 450 se v2 and a Gaui Hurricane 200 ;)! I've already learned a lot from the gyro to the 3 point pitch curve. Thanks for taking the time to do this build log. Can't wait to see this Schulter fly! Keep us posted.

[vermonster]

i had that same gyro in my kalt baron. i have to take pics of the gyro i have in my schluter, it's a JR NEJ-100 unit, and it was state of the art back then. man, i rant allot...

If you guy's don't mind I'd like to see a picture of the NEJ-1000A (offset drift cancel system)

[Dan]

If you guy's don't mind I'd like to see a picture of the NEJ-1000A (offset drift cancel system)

Schluterdude, come on, get a picture of that baby up here. You can even post the complete operating instructions per your understanding.

I hope you're getting used to me by now Schluterdude, I'm really glad you are part of this and having fun.

[schluterdude]

lol, sorry i havn't had any pics man! i FINALLY found the charger cord for my cam. after digging in the closet for two hours yesterday!

i was so pumped yesterday cuz i was going to pick up a 77 pinto cruising wagon! she's a POS but i fell in love with her at first sight :D

i'll get some pics when i get home from work..

[Dan]

Tonight we pull the engine. The cover has already been removed.

[Dan]

I have not yet built a modern 60 size helicopter but I thought it interesting that the mechanics came with engine shims. They differ in thickness only 100th of an inch. They are used to position the engine left to right. Front to rear adjustment is done with long mounting holes.

[Dan]

Engine out.

[Dan]

I guess it's time to attack the head

[schluterdude]

ok, here are pics!

here she is on the table!

[schluterdude]

here's the mechanics

[schluterdude]

the STATE OF THE ART gyro in the center of the wooden mass that is the radio center. the big black box for all of you who are used to little tiny things...

[schluterdude]

here's the amp for the gyro, fuzzy, but gets the idea across. that big ribbon cable is running between the amp, sevro, and gyro.

[schluterdude]

this one's for you dan, the interference question on the blades...

[schluterdude]

here's the head unit, similar to yours, but different.

[schluterdude]

these sideplates are supposed to go on the back where it is triangulated on the tail boom. they need some help first due to cracks and such. and, no, i don't know what D-STAR means.... it's the stickers it came with and even shows them on the manual! musta forgot to change that to H-STAR when they sold it in america! only answer i have..... :o

[schluterdude]

another tip for ya dan. instead of the cheezy cone start, where it is hollow in the middle, have a machinist buddy broach it so that you can use a hex-start shaft. man, i love working at machine shops! that's why the pictures suck... *dr. mccoy's voice* damnit jim i'm a grinder not a photographer!

[schluterdude]

and the freshly rebuilt tail...

[Dan]

Schluterdude, nice helicopter! It looks like it is in great condition. In fact I was going to cut some corners on my restoration but I’ve just been shamed into doing it right. Tonight I’ll strip the rest of the frame down and take it apart. I'm sorry that my frames came painted because yours look great in metal. The head looks the same as mine, so does the tail. We’re going to need to get some close-ups of mine so we can compare the pictures. I really like what you did with the starter cone. I think it’s time to hear from Ah Clem and see how his build is coming.

[schluterdude]

the two heads are extremely simmilar. the take offs on yours going from the bell/hiller mixer to the swash are slightly different i believe. at least, that's what the sales flyer i have shows.. i'll have to scan what i have into a PDF and post 'em for all you to see! i even have old catalogs and reciepts from when she was first purchased! you should strip yours to bare aluminum, it makes her look shaaaaarp! although, i was thinking about having mine annodized some fancy color once i get around to making a new canopy. mine's showing some age and some hairline cracks are starting. i have to figure out how to make a plug for it and build my own vacuum forming rig cuz i can't find a nice canopy anywhere!

[Dan]

The heads look alike to me. Just a couple of the linkage parts look a little different.

[schluterdude]

yup, that linkage for the bell/hiller mixing is the big difference. i assume it was just for better geometry, but i'm not totally sure. also, how is the head dampening accomplished? do you have a small plastic piece that gets sandwiched between the side plates that has two long bolts passing through it? also, those bolts (at least on mine) ride inside small rubber tubes. that whole assembly is then slid down over the main shaft, and then the jesus bolt is installed. hmm... a diagram would make that explanation make a whole lot more sense... tonight i'll post it if you're not sure what i'm talking about. other than that other potential difference, i believe the heads are essentially the same. where's ah clem on this one?? did he get bored with us? :eek:

[Dan]

Schluterdude, I don’t have any drawings to review but I do have some written instructions and when I looked up the dampening it said that the rubber tubes that these bolts go through control the dampening. The longer you make the rubber tube the more it gets compressed when you tighten the bolts. The more compressed the tubes are the stiffer the dampening becomes. Does that sound right?

[schluterdude]

exactamundo! man, that was an expensive upgrade for relatively little difference... good thing the old man never got it!

[Dan]

I pulled the head off so we could see the underside of the dampening setup. It turns out that it’s broken. This is another one of those parts that can’t be replaced and is a good reason not to start this kind of project. I’m going to epoxy and fiberglass it once I get it out and that should solve the problem.

[Dan]

And here we have another broken part that I don’t think a replacement is available for. I was hoping that these skids were the same size as the ones on the Heli-Baby but they’re not. The Heli-Baby skids are 435 mm long and 11 mm in diameter where the Superior skids are 462 mm long and 12 mm in diameter.

[heli-cuzz]

That's interesting. Looks like a lot of restorative work you have going on.
great job! :)

[Dan]

For now I’ve found a metal tube that is the same outside diameter as the inside diameter of the skid.

[Dan]

This should work fine until a better option presents itself.

[Dan]

So I was talking to Rock this morning because I noticed that my office computer was on and I was sure I had turned it off last night. He admitted that he had been using it and said he was checking out Dood’s Avant Ultimate Build. He said that thread has a third as many posts as my Superior thread but already more than ½ as many views. He said everybody is watching that thread and I’m wasting my time. He said nobody cares about a 25 year old Schluter, people just want to see him.

He told me that if I want people reading my thread I need to bring him back home and let him help me. That way all of the wives will be checking the thread again. Do you believe the arrogance that guy has? And like I care anyway. You know he would just take over the build again. Maybe next week, let him spend the three day holiday weekend alone in the office.

[schluterdude]

make your own parts man! that's half the fun! i found this site though from a guy in germany http://helioldie.de/a_parts.htm i'm getting a fan shroud extension from him. in your helibaby thread, i posted a link to another site that offers parts for these birds. that other site had a brand new superior head in stock.

http://stores.rchelicopterworld.net/Categories.bok?category=Vintage+Helicopter+Parts%3ASchluter

there it is, sorry, forget about the other thread. they don;t list much on their site, but, call them and ask. they have all sorts of stuff! and it's a champion head, not superior.. but, i think the champion head does fit, not completely sure though.

[schluterdude]

man, didn't read about what sort of hell rock's putting you through! what a butthead! he's just jealous cuz now he's not getting any more attention. take him for a tour around the superior and see what he has to say then! i'll bet he'd be chomping at the bit to take her up. :D

[Dan]

I’m trying to get a picture that will give everyone an idea of how the pitch is changed for lift on this machine. A wire runs in a slot that is in the side of the main shaft. The wire has a bend in the end of it that fits into a collar that is between the two main shaft bearing blocks. That collar is moved up and down by a servo attached to a bell crank. It is very simple but not very strong. The same wire has 2 more bends in it before it attaches to “U” bracket on the top of the head that has arms coming down from it attaching to the Bell-Hiller links on the end of the main blade clamps. The other side of the Bell-Hiller links attach to the swashplate just like on a modern helicopter. This wire is one of the reasons these helicopters can’t do high G 3D acrobatics. The wire in this helicopter broke as soon as I tried to remove it so I’ve drawn one into this picture in red.

[schluterdude]

i agree that they collective is cheezy, it's the same in my bird. makes sense, but very high drag due the groove it runs in, and weak cuz of the bends. i've always wondered if a different head would fit on her, and convert her to ccpm... ur resto might be a cool excuse to build a frankenstein... THAT should get some attention:)

[Dan]

Schluterdude, can the equipment your company sells make us custom main shafts? If it could we could put any head on any helicopter. Talk about Frankenstein, I could put a T-Rex 500 head on the Heli-Baby and a 600 head on the Superior.

[Dan]

Once I removed the electronics mounting assembly, the main shaft and the gas tank I noticed that the frame is very bent. I guess I’ll straighten it out but I’m wondering if it should be annealed in the oven before I put it back together.

Does anyone have a suggestion?

[Dan]

I think you can see the problem.

[Dan]

Taking it apart and fixing the bends was easy. What is not easy is deciding if I just put it back together as planned and fly the thing or do I get involved in stripping and painting. How about this, I put it back together and fly it and if all is well next winter I take it apart and strip it and paint. (or I just take it back to work, put it back on the shelf and build a nice new helicopter)

[Dan]

This is a picture of the main shaft. You can see the groove in the shaft. I have the pitch collar on the shaft with the bottom part of the broken wire coming out of it. Now later when the head is assembled you will be able to understand what is making it work.

[Dan]

I know that everyone can see that I'm building my helicopters on my pool table. What you don't know is that the pool table gets used 2 or 3 times a week. I need to clear everything into boxes and keep everything straight. The real pool table cover is leather and my wife also tells me to remove the black plastic I use to protect the leather cover before I take pictures. That's too much extra work for me.

[Dan]

Tonight we played from 6:30 until 9:30 but by morning the leather cover will be on and protected by the black plastic cover and heli parts will be all over the place and all will be right with the world.

[schluterdude]

yup, i could make u a main shaft, just give me a drawing with dimensions, and i'll see what i can come up with! anything for a fellow schluter nut! :D

nice table, looks kinda close to the wall on the left, u got enough room for a full stroke if the cue ball is on the cushion? u should see the brunswick table from the 20's the old man just finished restoring.... georgous! re-did the lead inlays, ivory, everything, pretty sweet. and flat to within .001 per foot of table. and, being full size, that's only .008 over the entire length of the table! i think he went overboard myself, but, man, the balls roll sweeeeeeeeeeet to say the least!

i wouldn't worry about anealing the aluminum. just take your time straightening it, and all will be well. again, if you have a machinist buddy, one of his granite surface plates would come in handy here cuz you could tell how flat it is just by laying it on the surface plate! if you need help with any parts, i would be more than willing to help. pm me, and i can give you a shipping address to help you out...

also, i would just strip the paint now. if you want to use chemicals, go for it. just be sure to take a trip to your local auto paint shop and pick up some wax and grease remover. after you apply the stripper and peel the paint off, wipe the w/g remover on it. then, using a separate, clean rag, wipe it off while the w/g is still wet on the surface. that will deactivate any remaining stripping compound, and clean it up nice. then, polish her up! she'll look like a million bucks!

sorry if this spelling kinda sucks, but, man, tell you what, i didn't know it was possible to drink as much as i did tonight! gunna be rough digging trenches tmw morning for sprinklers.... oh well! never drink if your not willing to pay for it! but, trust me (regardless of the beer....), if i get a drawing, i'll see what i can do. if you ship me a part, i'll do everything in my power to make it right. and, with the paint, go for it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

wonder how rock the butthead's doing all alone by himself! but, then again, he deserves it after what he said to you!

[Dan]

There is plenty of space all the way around the table. You never need a short que.

[schluterdude]

cool. that's the one annoying thing about my dad's table... one corner, the water heater's in the way, and just barely... we're moving that after we finish installing the sprinklers, then all is good in the universe!

get any more accomplished on your schluter?

[Dan]

I did not spend this Memorial Day weekend working on the Superior. I spent it flying and watching the Blue Angles at Jones Beach.

I am proud to say I have successfully flipped my T-Rex 450 SE, forward and backwards for the first time. I’ve been doing it on the simulator for some time but I haven’t been able until now to get the nerve up to try it with the real thing. I did crash when I tried to flip twice without stopping but not to worry the 450 was very inexpensive to repair and it is flying and flipping again.

There is a Fun Fly at my Long Island, Cedar Creek flying field this coming Sunday and it has been suggested that I bring Rock Hard and “HIS” Helicopter to the meet. I haven’t told Rock yet because I don’t want to deal with this yet but I’ve got a feeling he’s going to do a fixed pitch flying demonstration this coming Sunday. I sure hope he doesn’t screw up and embarrass me. He has only ever flown that chopper 6 or 7 times and half of that time cbflys had the transmitter. I was told at the field yesterday that I had to bring it because it was such a pretty helicopter and the meet would be the place to show it off.

Oh great! Rock is looking over my shoulder, he can see this screen from the Heli-Baby, I guess I need to deal with this now.

[Dan]

What I want to do on both my Heli-Baby and my Superior is mount CCPM 120 degree heads on them. The swash-plate on the Superior appears to be ruined. The bearings feel like they have flat spots on them. What I’d like to find out is what the shaft diameters and lengths are on the popular helicopters out there so I can get replacement heads. The Heli-Baby uses a 7 mm shaft while the T-Rex 500 uses an 8 mm head. The T-Rex 500 shaft is hollow so I’m not sure it would be smart to have the lower part of it milled down to fit the Heli-Baby bearing blocks.

The Superior has a 10 mm shaft but I don’t know what the shaft diameter is on say a T-Rex 600. There are also a lot of other good helicopters out there with CCPM 120 degree heads but unless I can find out the dimensions of the shafts I don’t know which ones to buy.

So please, post the dimensions of the main shafts of your 30, 40, 50 and 60 size helicopters and I’ll come up with a match that can be modified if needed to fit my Schluter helicopters. That’s my plan for now anyway so please help if you can or give me another suggestion.

[cbflys]

Dan,

You should be able to just replace main shaft bearings with new ones that have the proper ID to accept a readily available shaft. Then it will just be a matter of positioning the servos and/or bellcranks to get the proper pushrod geometry. Main gear position on the shaft may be an issue, but probaby something that can be easily worked out.

I'd suggest going with a TRex head - as you know the parts are available everywhere and are relatively inexpensive - especially if you stick with plastic.

[Dan]

Chuck;

The T-Rex 500 head has a shaft that is only 1 mm larger than the Heli-Baby shaft so if I was to change the main shaft bearings (duh, do I feel dumb for not thinking of that) I could drill out the Heli-Baby main gear by 1 mm and I would be half way home. Too bad that head doesn’t come in plastic.

So do we know what the shaft size is on the T-Rex 600?

[cbflys]

The main rotor shaft OD on the TRex 600 is 10mm (through the two upper bearings. The bottom of the shaft that goes through the third (lower) bearing has a slightly smaller OD - I don't know what that is off-hand.

Personally, I think the 500 head is a little 'light' for a .60 size helicopter. You'd be better off making the 600 head work.

[Dan]

It seems to me that the T-Rex 600 head should bolt right onto the existing Schluter Superior main shaft. Now that will cut some corners. I would need the complete head without the main shaft. So a swash-plate and up for a T-Rex 600 in plastic with a set of 600 mm blades could get that helicopter flying. I have never seen a 600 head offered like the 450 head is available. Does anyone have any ideas? Do I need to get a 600 manual and order all of the parts individually?

[bboy]

Here Dan this is a combo for a Raptor but it should work :D http://www.grandrc.com/inc/sdetail/73612

[schluterdude]

glad to see you're gunna try for a frankenstein! are you gunna run your push-rods through a bellcrank set-up, or are you gunna mount them right under the swash? this could be cool... might have to do the same on my heli-star when you're done and we see how it works :D

u think about re-doing the tail? a shaft drive set-up would work... man, i wish i could remember which heli had the one-way set up on it's torque tube, that could probably be modified to work... anyone else know which one i'm talking about? there was an article about it in one of the issues. a guys kid suggested the idea..

[DVS]

there was an article about it in one of the issues. a guys kid suggested the idea..
That article would be in issue #15 page 18 the kids name is Tyler and they were talking about possible upgrades for the Synergy N9. ;)

[Dan]

OK, a couple of things to cover here. bboy, nice find, is that because you fly a Raptor? Trying to make it fly like a T-Rex? cbflys is talking about donating some head parts and so is his friend Ed. I've got to add up the costs and find out if it's still cheaper to buy the whole head.

The Superior has 3 bellcranks on it that have matching geometry so I think I can leave the servos where they are and just move the bellcranks and get one spacer.

Also the Superior has a shaft driven tail, not a belt.

[Dan]

I went ahead and re-installed the engine and fuel tank. It is getting late but I want to start it up and make sure it is OK. Hopefully I can start it tomorrow. I'm about to buy a T-Rex 600 head for about one 3rd the cost of a whole T-Rex so I'd like to know the motor is good.

[vermonster]

any of these parts help?


http://cgi.ebay.com/SCHLUTER-S3408-10MM-SHAFT-155MM-LONG_W0QQitemZ250252483418QQihZ015QQcategoryZ34056QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


http://search.ebay.com/search/search.dll?from=R40&_trksid=m37&satitle=schluter&category0=

[schluterdude]

i know it's a wire drive, so is the helistar... just a suggestion on an upgrade to a torque tube....

[Dan]

Thank you Vermonster, I’ll measure the length of the main shaft tonight. If that one is the right length I’ll order it. From the main shaft down I’m hoping to remain stock. The second link you sent has most of the parts I need to repair the existing head but without the swashplate it would be a waste. I do like the idea of flying with the T-Rex head anyway, it is stronger and parts will be around for a long time.

Schluterdude, I don’t think the tail is a problem. The bearings every 6 to 8 inches inside the tube are a maintenance concern but for now I’ll just deal with it. Let’s see how it flies. If everything else works right then I’ll think about a tail upgrade. The tail on the Superior is driven by a reversible planet gear built into the top of the main gear. I don’t think I want to mess with that yet.

[schluterdude]

yup, same as the heli-star.. the gears are the same part number :) it could be as simple as making adapters to fit the front and back bevel gears, and replacing the bushings in the tail boom. could be being the key phrase there...

[Dan]

I ordered the complete 600 head (I think) so now I’m committed or my wife will have me committed. So if the engine turns out to be bad I’ll buy a new one, isn’t that what happened last time?

When I get home tonight I’m going to measure the Superior tail boom. If I remember correctly the T-Rex 600 Nitro comes with a belt drive and the torque tube is an upgrade which comes standard on the Nitro Pro. So that whole assembly is sitting on a shelf somewhere and I just need to see if it fits. The torque tube sells for $15.99, the metal torque tube tail is $59.32 and a CF boom is $19.99. The specs are on-line so I know it has an O.D. of the boom is 21.5mm, the I.D. is 20mm and the length is 625mm. Then I’d need to mount it facing the wrong way and fit the Superior fins to it. Schluterdude, this is all your fault.

Schluterdude, I noticed that you have 3 fuel line connections on your tank yet no pressure connection to your muffler. That is the same set-up as mine. Do you know the reason for that? With the upgrade I'm doing I'm thinking I need to change that set-up. I'm thinking I'll need to put a pressure fitting on the muffler and close the other fuel connection. I bet Ah Clem could tell us about that.

[schluterdude]

yup, three connections, i just have the pressure tube bent around to make it air tight during storage. the left is to the muffler (if you can call the tin can that..), the right is to the carb, and the center is SUPPOSED to be used for either filling or a header tank (i think). it sucks for filling cuz it'll flood the engine. i just unscrew the cap and fill 'er up! guys laugh at me, but, hey, it's easy! then to unfuel it (in the rare event i don't fly a full tank :D ) i just pull off the carb line and pump her out.

and, hey, what's my fault?? talking you into this project! bwa hahahaha! rock will be so jealous of the superior!

[Dan]

So you do have a pressure fitting on your muffler? I'd like to see a picture of it if you could post one. I'm going to try to drill a fitting into mine.

[schluterdude]

here's the pics! this one shows the muffler and how i route the pressure line. the fitting is just threaded into the pipe. a hole was drilled, and with a little JB weld or simmilar, the pressure tap was threaded in. that's from the old man's reccolection, i've never taked the fitting out because there was never a need...

[schluterdude]

here's the second pic, showing the fuel lines in their flight configuration. the one on the right is obviously the carb, the one on the left is the pressure line, and the third is plugged. i would assume that it is there for a header tank, nothing is mentioned in the set-up instructions (which i plan on bringing to work tmw and scanning to a PDF and posting), but i remember ray's manual saying something to that effect. i'll have to send my wife on a mission to find it because i can never find anything...

anyway, these pics help?

[Dan]

Thank you Schluterdude, that gives me a good idea of what I need to do.

The dimensions don't work for the T-Rex torque tube tail. The boom on the Superior is 730mm where the T-Rex is 625mm. The O.D. on the Superior boom matches the I.D. on the T-Rex. I think I need some other options. The boom on the Superior fits over a mounting block that has a 18mm O.D. I could use a piece of the old boom as a sleeve if I wanted it to fit the T-Rex boom but that boom is 105mm short.

For now I can use the old boom but if anyone can give me the dimensions of some other stuff out there it would be great.

And if anyone, expert or newbe wants to see a great experiment in helicopter physics keep watching. We are about to design a swashplate configuration that will make a 1980 helicopter fly like a 2008 model. When I took the Superior down to the frames it was as light as anything on the market today so I could end up with a real performer.

This is a picture of the mounting block the stock boom fits over.

[schluterdude]

what about making your own torque tube out of a CF arrow? that was an oldschool way of upgrading from the fiberglass...

[Dan]

It appears that a standard arrow is 31 inches long or 787.4 mm and that could become a torque tube if I had to make one. I would much rather find a complete tail assembly already built for a different helicopter and make it fit. I’m going to get the dimensions off a Raptor. If fact bboy, if you’re at work I know you have your Raptor with you, maybe you can give me the length and diameter of the boom?

I’m still concerned about the main shaft. The Schluter shaft has that grove in it which makes it unbalanced. As soon as you set it down it rolls so the grove faces up. I’m wondering if 10mm stainless steel rod is easy to come by and how hard it would be to drill the holes in it or cut it to length. Does anyone out there know?

[schluterdude]

it will HAVE to be ground to the correct size to maintain run-out, roundness (yes, they are two different measurements, although one can make it seem like the other's the problem), and other things. it is drillable, if you have good bits. again, you will have to locate things DEAD NUTS for it to work. hardened mild steel might be easier, as it can be turned, drilled, hardened, and then ground. stainless is a pain to work with, in my opinion, but, it's better than chrome!

btw, how far are you from east lyme ct.? i'm going to be up there next week on business...

[Dan]

East Lyme, CT. is 116 miles from my office in Manhattan and 128 miles from my home on Long Island. We're not going to be able to meet for lunch, but if you're driving and willing to go the rest of the distance it would be great to meet you, have you to see the project and use our guest room.

Do you have a milling machine? And you say it needs to be turned? I would think 10mm rod should be available, no?

I had a milling machine when I lived in California and I sold it to a friend there. I thought worst case I could buy a 10mm rod on the internet and have it delivered to him. I'd email him a drawing and he'd send me 4 main shafts.

Why isn't it that simple?

[cbflys]

East Lyme, CT is about 5 miles from New London (where you would get the ferry to Orient Point). The ferry is about a 1 hour 20 minute trip. From Orient Point, it's about a 2 hour drive to Freeport.

[schluterdude]

dunno if i could do the 3+ hour trip down there, sorry... i'm gunna be work 7-4 or 5 while i'm there, and traveling via plane monday and friday... oh well, perhaps another time. here's some good news though! i found the ad for the superior that i had, along with the set-up pages for my helistar. they're too big to post, even after zipping... i can email them to whoever is currious!

[schluterdude]

oops, about the machining question. yes, i do have access to a mill, a lathe, cylindrical and profile grinders where i work. you can buy 10mm stock, but, unless it is ground, you may have all sorts of size, runout, roundess, and other geometrical errors. i can make the parts accurate to .0001mm, but, i would think .0025mm would be sufficient (that's about .0001 inch). if you send me a drawing of what you need, i can see what i can make happen! i think i saw some hollow thru-hardened tool steel rods around that could work.... tool steel is brittle (as in it doesn't like to bend very much), but tough stuff.

[Dan]

Schluterdude, I’ll PM my email address to you and I suggest you send me yours. Please email me the documentation you found.

No wonder you like to make your own parts, with those machines you can. I need to get the distance from the top of the shaft to the center of the bolt hole on the T-Rex 600 shaft. I have the distance for the bottom hole on the Superior shaft. I just want to do some checking on the overall length because I guess it can be whatever I want and I’ll put it all together on a drawing and email it to you.

This is very cool, btw Ah Clem has not logged on after 5/8. I’ve PM’d him but he hasn’t logged on to pick the message up and the system blocks me from emailing him. I sure hope he’s ok and comes back.

[schluterdude]

did we manage to tick him off? j/k, he loves us! i hope he's ok too...

[schluterdude]

sent u the docs, u can pick up my email and phone number off the bottom..

[vermonster]

This is very cool, btw Ah Clem has not logged on after 5/8. I’ve PM’d him but he hasn’t logged on to pick the message up and the system blocks me from emailing him. I sure hope he’s ok and comes back.

Dan, check here you might get a hold of him.

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/member.php?u=60118

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/search.php?searchid=15164225

[Dan]

Thank you Vermonster:

He hadn’t been on that forum after 5/9 but on the 28th he did go on again so maybe he was just on vacation. I’m hoping we hear from him soon.

I tried to start the motor on the Superior last night but I don’t have the right cone on my starter. I’ll buy the right one today and then I need to mail the cone off to Schluterdude and see if he’ll fix it like he did his. That is a great modification that allows him to use the hex starting rod (post 42 in this thread) and I want it on mine.

Cbflys contacted me by email with some tips that could help me match the T-Rex 600 tail assembly to my Superior. He then pointed out that I’d be flying a T-Rex 600 with a Schluter transmission and canopy. He thinks I’m stretching it a little if I continue to call this a restoration after that. I have to agree and I think I should wait on the tail until the helicopter flies with the new head. After that anything goes and I’ll have what Schluterdude labeled a Frankenstein.

[schluterdude]

wouldn't it be a superiorex?? :) no prob, i can broach the starter cone for you..

look at it this way, strip all of the annodizing off your new parts and just clear annodize them or something, and no one would be none the wiser! do a fly-off and see their faces when they're beaten by a "superior" bird!

[Dan]

Schluterdude you just named the project, SuperioRex. I'm going to work on the logo.

I received the head parts in the mail today so I can start on the linkage. This weekend is pretty full but I'll try to get some interesting stuff posted.

[schluterdude]

cool, looking forward to getting your prints! measure twice, cut once!

[Dan]

I could use some help from one of you T-Rex 600 fliers out there. It shouldn't matter if you fly electric or Nitro. If your head is apart or you're willing to take it apart, I'm looking for the dimension from the retaining ring on top of the upper bearing to the top of the shaft. I'm also looking for the dimension from the top of the shaft to the center of the upper hole.

The Superior head had the fly bar above the main blades and a split spindle resulting in a very long main shaft. You can see in this picture that the main shaft extends 99mm above the retaining ring and the hole for the head bolt is 15mm from the top of the shaft.

In order to mock-up the head and come up with the dimension for the new shaft I want to grind the old shaft to the correct size and drill a new mounting hole in it.

[Dan]

So here is the complete T-rex 600 head in bags. I think it ended up costing $140.00. I'll test fit a few of the parts and I can start working on the linkage even before I get the correct shaft dimensions. I'm thinking that if the shaft is the same as the shaft for my T-rex 500 there will be a ring cut into the main shaft where the retaining ring goes. If that is the case I can go to my LHS and measure a main shaft to get the dimensions I need.

Look who is back home getting ready to do a demonstration of fixed pitch flying at the Cedar Creek Fun Fly tomorrow. You know that guy has his own thread, there is really no reason for him to show up here.

[Dan]

Once you put the swashplate on the main shaft you can see how little needs to be changed in order to make this head work.

Here you see the elevator bellcrank. It needs to be moved back 8.5mm in order to be directly below the ball on the swashplate.

[Dan]

Here we have the aileron bellcrank. It needs to be moved forward 16.4mm in order to line up under the aileron ball on the swashplate.

[schluterdude]

man, this is looking easier and easier! you may be able to use the existing mainshaft perhaps... i know the balance issue of the groove is kinda freaking you out, but, you could always just epoxy in a piece of music wire to make it flat, then cut it to length, and, depending on the hardness of the metal drill it for a new main shaft bolt! i'm still more than happy to help out, just trying to make the project more cost effective so the OL stays happy :)

and what's up with rock?! what an attention hog! he had this whole huge thread, then started to criticize you about the superiorex, and now he wants a piece of the action??? the nerve of that guy!

p.s. - those frames look sweet now that they are straight! atta boy!

[Dan]

The new head is almost the same size as the old one. The new flybar is 10mm shorter but the paddes are longer and it doesn't have giant weights on it.

[schluterdude]

nifty, new, and shiny! are we gunna have to mill a hole in the new shaft for the flybar to pass through, or does it clear the top of the shaft?

[Dan]

The flybar passes over the main shaft

[schluterdude]

man, this just gets easier eh?

[Dan]

The main shaft that came with the Superior does not appear to have been manufactured to very strict tolerances. In fact the new head from Align is also a little inconsistent. The swashplate is very snug on the main shaft but snugger in some areas than in others. You can move it up and down but there is way too much drag to try and use it that way. The block for the mixing arms does not fit over the main shaft at all. That’s not completely true; it fits half way over the top of the shaft. The Align head block fits fine on top of the main shaft. The Schluter main shaft fits nicely through the Schluter bearings in the blocks but those bearings should be changed. The bearings in the clutch blocks should also be changed.

I have a fairly good set of calipers but they are not metric. I want to take the bearings out of the blocks and measure them so I can order replacements. Without going crazy what kind of clearance should I allow so everything will work but nothing will be sloppy? Schluterdude this may be right up your alley but if anyone out there has an opinion I’d like to hear it.

[schluterdude]

ideally, for that "perfect fit" they should be damn close, but, not the same. typically the shaft should be approx -.0002" in OD compared to the ID of the bearing or "mating" surface. so, what i would do, check the ID of the ball in your swash, and compare it to your bearings, and the head itself. since the head gets bolted into place and there's enough room, you could get away with a couple thou difference in size. i'm anal retentive, so, i'd make it as tight as possible but still silky smooth. i could make the part for you to -.0002" (approx .005mm) and then you can lap it into the final dimension. a simple easy way to do that is chuck it in your drill, turn it on, then nice and slowy go over it with 320 grit paper and some WD40 a little at a time (about .0001"). i mark the part up with a marker then when you lap it, when all the marker goes away you've taken off just about .0001. or, when i make the part, send me your swash, and i can just take care of it then... i can build the whole assy and mail it back.

gimmee a call if you wanna work something out, the numbers on the bottom of my email (cell number)

[Dan]

While I decide if I need to buy a stock T-Rex 600 shaft in order to finish my drawing for the new main shaft I can reposition the bell-cranks. The bell-cranks have 20mm between the swashplate link ball and the mounting screw,

[Dan]

By marking a point inline with the swashplate ball and moving forward 20mm we find the position to drill the new bellcrank mounting hole.

[Dan]

From here if we drill straight through to the other side we will be making the mounting hole for the CCPM pitch bellcrank.

[Dan]

The elevator bellcrank only moves back 3mm

[Ah Clem]

Dan,

I'm here.

I did go on vacation briefly, and was a bit strapped with work.

I am enjoying this thread immensely. I think I might still have the mortal remains of a Superior in the garage. It was given to me by my last sponser, back in the early 1990's. Someone else had built it, and a tail blade flew off over the pavement at Mile Square Park (shows how long ago it was).

I do remember that it flew extremely well. There was more power in the head than on the Heliboy, and it was smoother.

Your conversion is very interesting. It should fly great with the 600 head.

I will try to log in a bit more often (I did not think anyone would notice that I was missing anyway).

I am going to start working on the Commander again, but it is kind of a pain to work on. The head is similar to the Superior head, but somewhat cruder (an SAE copy of a Heliboy head-just a "pencil-width" wider than the Heliboy head). It shares the same "collecitive pushrod in the slotted main shaft as your machine did.


Schluterdude,

That Helistar is "freakin" gorgeous.

Keep posting, these are great threads!!!

[schluterdude]

ah clem!!!! glad to have you back buddy! this build is pretty sweet, ain't it? post some picks of your commander and superior! dan seems like he's more than willing to share the spot light from time to time. i think rock helped with that a bit...

dan, has rock had any comments about the project as of yet? or is he still convinced it's doomed from the get go?

i'm contemplating on starting a new project with the heli-star to make my own vacuum formed canopy, using the one i have. i'm gunna make a plug and see how it goes cuz mine's showing some signs of aging. how's your superior canopy dan? depending on if i can figure out on how to make this works, i'd be willing to help you out and make u up a canopy...

[Dan]

The Canopy on my Superior has cracks in a few places. For the most part it's OK. I plan on putting fiber glass cloth reinforcements over the cracked areas on the inside using epoxy resin. I'm going to do that as part of the restoration.

As far as a new canopy, that would be very cool if you can figure out how to do it.

Also Schluterdude, should I send you the dowel I milled down to fix my tail boom when I send you the stuff to make the main shaft? I think you said you could use it.

[schluterdude]

sure! the heli looks sweet except for that one little ding in the tail boom. it's amazing how easily those wood blades bent to come down for a boom strike. from what i remember, he was only about three and a half feet off the ground, max. it started to get away from him and he chopped the throttle. it didn't land all that hard (although, i was somewhere between 8 and 10 by the time he got the balls to try and fly it), but, i guess it did!

[schluterdude]

make any progress dan?

[Dan]

I’m kind of stuck at the moment. I guy I know from my LHS had an accident with his T-Rex 600 Nitro at the same fun fly Rock and I attended Sunday before last. He is a great extreme 3D pilot. While doing some hard Tic Toc’s he through his battery out of the helicopter. There is no recovery from that.

He had told me that the shaft was in one piece and he would give it to me if I would come down to the store this past Sunday with the collar ring on it at the correct position at the top of the upper bearing block.

It was exactly what I needed to get my finals numbers for the drawing but when I went there on Sunday he said when he checked it he had already completely dismantled the head and he had nothing to give me.

I’m looking for the dimensions that I show in post number 106. There I show the Schluter dimensions and what I’m looking for are the T-Rex 600 numbers. If anyone out there is building or repairing a T-Rex 600 and can take the measurements it would really help me. When I was at the LHS I tried to buy a shaft but they were out of them. Now I’ve ordered one on-line and I hope to have it by the end of the week. I’ll still be guessing at the height above the bearing block but I’m sure I can get very close.

So that’s where I am, I’m a little frustrated but moving forward. I’ll keep you posted.

[Dan]

Well cbflys did me a real solid and took his T-Rex 600 Nitro Pro apart in order to get me the dimensions I was missing. Thank you Chuck. It turns out that while the hole for the Jesus bolt is 15mm from the top of the shaft on the Superior it is only 10mm from the top on the T-Rex. Also from the top of the mast collar to the top of the mast is 99mm on the Superior and only 87.5mm on the T-Rex.

I don’t think I’ll be able to finish everything this weekend but I’m back in business for now.

[schluterdude]

cool. :cool:

[vermonster]

Dan check this out! :D

http://www.helifreak.com/images/icons/icon1.gif Schlueter Rotor Head Assembly "NIB"
New In Box : Schlueter, No.2801 Rotor head assembly
for Vintage Heli

Make me an offer / Trade
http://www.helifreak.com/showthread.php?t=79558

[Dan]

Vermonster, that is a great find. If it had come up a month ago I would have gotten it. As things are now I've already purchased the T-Rex 600 head and moved my control arms so they can operate the head.

This past week Rock and I have been finishing up a 1/7 scale Mustang for him to fly and that is why I haven't posted any progress on the Superior. I'm hoping that by the end of next week I can have everything finished and shipped off to Schluterdude so he can fabricate a couple of main shafts. After that I should be flying.

[schluterdude]

how 'bout some pics of that wood pile? :D

[Ah Clem]

Greetings Gentlemen,

I was just checking in to see what was going on.

The Commander is still sitting, waiting for carb parts. I have now accumulated all the electronics I need for it. It is not pleasant to work on (one excuse for stalling).

I think that Patrick is afraid anyway.

I hope you are all well and will continue to check out this thread.


Take care.

[Dan]

Ah Clem, thank you for checking in. Schluterdude, here are a couple of pictures of the "wood pile" I've been working on. I still need to install the fuel tank, retract servo and apply the decals. I'm hoping to fly it on Sunday and get back to work on the Superior.

[DVS]

Nice :)
Rock looks happy with it.

[schluterdude]

sweet lookin' bird dan! although, the helibaby still steals the show :D

u got a 4 stroke or 2 stroke motor hidden in there? i see fuel tubing on the table, so i hope you wouldn't desecrate a warbird with an electric motor...

[Dan]

DVS, Rock is crazy about the Mustang. He thinks I'm wasting my time with the Superior. The Superior has become another Heli-Baby project for me. I just need to prove to myself that I can make it fly, completely stock, except for the T-Rex 600 head.

I ordered the T-Rex 600 Nitro Super Pro yesterday and it will arrive Monday. Yellow canopy with black lightning. Rock and I should have a good time putting that together. Have there been enough T-Rex 600 Nitro builds already? Will anyone follow it if I do it on line? But I won't open the box until the Superior flies. Unless Schluterdude takes too long with the main shafts.

Schluterdude, That war bird is running a 4 stroke .91 and I built it because all of my .40 size airplanes have been converted to electric and they wouldn't let me fly an electric at my field fun fly week before last. So if I'm going to gas at the field it's going to be a war bird. I do have the great planes electric park flier Corsair and their electric Red Barron Tri-Plane, but they have 33 inch wing spans and should be electric.

[Dan]

I just noticed when I posted that picture that I also have the Cox micro Corsair, the Cox micro Spit-Fire and the Hobby Lobby F-86 Saber and they are all in that picture, so I guess I have more electric war birds.

I just looked around and saw my T-33 Shooting Star, another cool electric jet war bird. But that is all.

[schluterdude]

quite the hanger! now we just gotta get that superior in the air...

[Dan]

Schluterdude, I’m sending you this drawing but also the Superior shaft and a T-Rex 600 shaft. I’m also sending the dowel so you can fix your tail boom. I’d like you to compare the real shafts to the drawing. My measuring equipment is not very good and I’m converting inches to mm.

The overall length you need to accept as I’ve stated but that is the least critical of all the measurements. Thank you for taking this on and let me know when the package arrives.

[Dan]

Yesterday I started the engine in the Superior and I was very pleased with the way it ran. I think it will have plenty of power to fly the machine. It is a O.S. Max 61 which should be the same size and weight as a 90 engine and that is something to think about down the road.

I did find out that there is a crack in the fuel tank and it needs to be replaced. It has a bottle tank like the one on the Heli-Baby but the one in the Heli-Baby is an inch and a half shorter. The diameter appears to be the same. I think we are looking at a 10 oz tank in the Heli-Baby and a 14 oz tank in the Superior.

The attached picture is of the Heli-Baby tank that I can order today and have next week. I've been doing Internet searching for almost an hour and I haven't found out where to get the larger tank. If anyone has any ideas let me know. I'd also like an opinion on using the 10 oz tank. That is sure an easy solution but what kind of run time would I get with 10 ozs of fuel with a 60 size engine. Any and all input is requested here.

Schluterdude e-mailed me on Monday and said he had received the things I sent him and he asked for some clarification on some things which we worked out. He is milling the new main shaft now. I think we are coming very close to finishing this machine and trying to fly it.

[vermonster]

I'll keep my eye out! http://www.xrtheme.com/content/emoticons/eyes/03.gif

[cbflys]

I have that tank in stock Dan. You can come and get it or I'll give it to you this weekend.

[Dan]

Chuck, that is amazing. Of all the items to have in stock, a bottle fuel tank for a 1979 Schluter Superior. So far everything I've needed and couldn't find or broken when the stores were closed you have had in stock.

Do you want to fly tomorrow or Sunday at Cedar Creek? If so I'll get it then, if not send me an email on when you'll be home and I'll drop by. Thank you.

cbflys comes through again

[vermonster]

I have that tank in stock Dan. You can come and get it or I'll give it to you this weekend.

You da man! AGAIN :D

[cbflys]

I'll be there tomorrow with fuel bottle in hand :p

[schluterdude]

way to go cbflys on the tank!! dan, i'm out of town for the next two weeks, but, i'm hoping that next weekend i can get into work and finish up your shaft! i'm itching to see this birdie up in the air as much as you are!!! a 90 conversion on a superior... sounds fun! i think she's gunna live up to the frankenstein "superiorex" name afterall!!!

[Dan]

cbflys met me at the field early this morning for some heli flying and the maiden flight of Rocks P-51 Mustang. He was carrying the replacement fuel tank for the Superior when he showed up. Chuck has now donated parts for both my on-line builds. When I got home and check the tank it turned out to be the same part number and a perfect fit.

This is the link to the maiden flight of Rock's Mustang. The crash landing happened when the engine stalled. One of the wheels hooked the ground. I thought it could roll on the grass. The motor mount and cowl broke, the rest is untouched.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKsQt1POvuo

[schluterdude]

bummer on the landing.... nice tank though! complete with robbe sticker! way to go cbflys!

[Dan]

Well Schluterdude I shipped your payment for the main shafts off to you today. You will receive it on Monday. You might want to let the wife know that its coming. You wouldn't want her to think you purchased it would you? I'm hoping this will inspire you to get the shafts done this week. Let me know when it arrives. I'd like to see you do a build on a T-Rex 450 SA ARF on line. I think the standard build time is 45 minutes.

[schluterdude]

should be gettin' your shafts done tmw. i was planning on doing them today, but it turned out i got stuck in meetings with customers all day. the wife already knows it's coming, we must think alike! lol

[schluterdude]

dan, a status update...

i made your shafts, but, i got currious as to what the hardness was on the one that was originally in the schluter, along with the shaft that is the o.e. align shaft. turns out, the align shaft is around 48 Rc while the schluter shaft was around 20-25 Rc.

the align shaft is harder, i presume, to be able to withstand the forces involved in the more extreme flight that the 'rex is capable of, compared to the stock schluter. with the new head, in theory i would think, it will be capable of much more extreme maneuvers, thus requiring a nice hard main shaft. i'm going to order some harder stock tmw morning overnight to where i work, and i'll get your shafts in the mail on tuesday after work. sorry for this delay, but, i don't wanna send you a shaft that isn't up to par. i know you're itchin' to build! i'll send the shafts to you so that you'll get them by the weekend at the latest. sorry for the delays buddy!

[Dan]

Schluterdude, a short delay is not a problem. I knew the Align shaft was much harder but I wasn't concerned because I've barely mastered forward flight. A fast figure eight is my best trick. If I'm getting the harder shafts I may let one of the 3D guys at the field give it try and take some video.

Thank you for the update.

[schluterdude]

YAY! parts are in the mail!!!! as soon as our shipping guy hooks me up with the tracking number, i'll pass it on to you :D :D :D

i've got some ideas on how to further improve this shaft, so, if you wind up stuffin' her into the ground a couple of times, lemme know, i'll make you some more... :eek:

[Dan]

Schluterdude sent me the tracking number for the new shafts this morning and it looks like I’ll have them tomorrow, Wednesday. Last night I pulled out the 4 boxes of parts I had stashed around the house and put the building cover back on the pool table.

[Dan]

It’s a good thing I like to keep organized. You can see the fan bolts and spacers in their bag and the bellcrank assembles in an old servo box. I like to bag and tag everything when I take stuff a part and then box up the sections so I don’t get confused at assembly time. When 3 weeks go by and there are no instructions it can be a lifesaver.

[schluterdude]

what's the fun in staying organized!? the air is SUPPOSED to be blue when your putting stuff back together :D

after u get her all put together and make sure it works, are u gunna strip it all back down and make her look like new? you had said something to that effect earlier, just wondering if you're still thinking about it.

[schluterdude]

here's those radio pics, like the "old man" gyro's, here's an "old man" radio...

[Dan]

Schluterdude, I'm glad to know you won't be using that radio anymore. Vintage heli's are one thing but flying with 20 year old electronics is another. It's like asking for a failure and an accident

The shafts arrived today and they appear to be a perfect fit. I'll know better tomorrow but I was able to insert the shaft into the Algin head and everything lined up. Nice job!

[schluterdude]

no prob dan, anything for a fellow schluter nut! now we just gotta get her up in the air!

[Dan]

Here we have one beautiful assembly. This has been a joint effort where cbflys took apart his perfectly good helicopter in order to measure the shaft height from the top bearing up and the Jesus bolt location. I took the dimension off of the Superior from the top bearing down and the gear bolt hole location. After cbflys gave me his dimensions I did the drawing and sent it with some old Align and Schluter main shafts to Schluterdude who made 3 shafts to the dimensions cbflys and I came up with. I don’t know how but not one of us made a mistake. It is a perfect fit. Dare I say it looks like it was made for it.

This should not take too long to finish now. I need to make up the new linkage rods and if my LHS doesn’t have what I need when I go there tomorrow it will be one more week to the test flight. If they have the materials I need I think we can test fly Sunday.

Thank you Chuck and thank you T.J.

[blax1]

Good on you guys that's a perfect example of how this forum should/does work, very nice to read :)

[schluterdude]

wow, starting to look like we almost know what we're doing here!!!

[Dan]

I worked on the Superior until midnight last night which was not smart as I have a 5:00 am wake-up call in order to get to work in Manhattan on time. As soon as I had test fit a shaft on Wednesday when they arrived I realized I had a serious bearing concern. This helicopter has been kicking around from hot attic to hot attic from NY to Florida to California and then back to NY for the past 28 years. I always kept it with me but most of the time it was out of site in the attic. It had only found a comfortable home in my Manhattan office this year. The grease in the bearings had been destroyed and a lot of dust had gotten in them.

So on Wednesday night I removed all of the bearing blocks and pressed the bearings out of them and out of the clutch bell. I cleaned them with solvent and then soaked them over night in brake fluid. Yesterday cbflys dropped by to loan me his bearing packing tool so I used a compressor to blow the fluid out of the bearings and re-packed them. I was pretty much back to square one as far as assembly goes at 8:15 pm last night when I was happy with the condition of the bearings.

After I took the picture last night and posted it I got back to work and installed the engine, the fan cover and the muffler. By then it was midnight so I went to bed. When I got to this point with the Heli-Baby I worked until 2:00 am and took the next day off from work to finish it but that was not an option today because the rest of management is out on vacation already.

This is how it looked when I went to bed. I am going to try very hard to finish it tomorrow.

[schluterdude]

gotta love sleep depravation due to hobbies!!!! do you remember what kind of pipe is on her? that looks like one of the old fashioned tuned pipes. she'd probably look pretty sweet all polished up. "blue magic" works awesome and you can get it at autoparts stores. just don't burry your nose in it, smells worse than cat pee.

funny side note on that... i had my mom smell it, and she gaged of course. then my little sister came in the room, and both my mom and i told her she had to smell it cuz it was awesome (i have no idea how we kept a straight face). she sticks her nose in and just went at it. needless to say her eyes were watering, she was coughing and gaging, and my mom and i were laughing hysterically! i love having a gullible little sister :D

[Dan]

I've been at it for 5 hours now. The CCPM linkages had to be made so that took some time.

[Dan]

This shows the bellcranks that work the ailerons and the elevator.

[Dan]

This picture shows the pitch bellcrank.

[Dan]

The helicopter is at least 90% complete. The radio is set-up and working, I just haven't mounted it in the chopper yet. The fuel tank is installed and plumbed. I just need to install the tail linkage and invent some kind of anti-rotation bracket.

[Dan]

Not that I'm any real kind of inventor and I could really use some help here. This is where some type of anti-rotation bracket needs to be mounted. I'm going to take the helicopter down to my LHS now and see if they have any suggestions.

I don't know why I'm bothering, it's going to take half an hour for them to just stop laughing.

[Dan]

It is now 3:30 and working with Ken, the owner of Willis Hobbies on Long Island, we found the parts I need to fabricate a mount for the T-rex 600 anti-rotation bracket. This will be interesting.


By the way he didn't laugh once, at least while I was looking and I appreciate that.

[Dan]

This is a design on the fly project. The first thing I did was wrap the T-rex 600 anti-rotation bracket in tape. Then a punched a hole in the tape so I could hang the bracket on the guide peg so it would be centered on the peg when the head was centered.

That allowed me to see how large I would need to make the sides.

[Dan]

Then I used the carbon fiber heli side panels (that I purchased very cheap because they are for an extinct helicopter that Willis Hobbies doesn't carry any more) to make a mount that could hold the anti-rotation bracket and screw to the Superior frames.


It helps to have an un-assembled T-Rex 600 in the house so you can use it's sides as a template. I taped the sides together so that I was always drilling and cutting both sides at the same time in hopes that they would come out identical. The right side will require some additional cutting to clear the elevator bellcrank before I'm done.

[Dan]

This is the bracket with the carbon fiber sides. I cut the carbon fiber with my Dremel and it cut very nice and clean. This finished assembly is 47mm wide at the bottom inside to inside. The Superior frames are 23mm outside to outside. That means a need to make 4 12mm spacers to center the bracket over the frame.

[Dan]

Well that takes care of one problem.

[Dan]

I cut some brass tubing into 12mm lengths and used them as the spacers. I think we're done with the Anti-Rotation problem and it's now time to tackle the rudder control issue.

[Dan]

Sooooooo close yet so far. I'm not going to make it tonight. It is 8:30 pm so I've got 12 and a half hours into it today and I need to eat and take in fluids. I've got 2 problems that I don't want to tackle when I'm tired.

What made me stop just now is that the new control arms I purchased today for the servos are not here. It looks like they might have forgotten to put them in the bag at the check-out counter. With out those arms I can't fly as the arms on the servos are not all the same lengths for the CCPM. The helicopter still has the old servos in it. I ordered replacements but they're not here yet. I was willing to test it with the old servos and set-up the linkages as the servos work fine but I had to replace the servo arms. My LHS doesn't open until 11:00am tomorrow and heli flying at my field is from 7:30 am until 9:30 am. With any luck I might get to start it up and hover in front of the house late tomorrow but that's the best I can hope for.

When I went to hook up the rudder I really didn't like the linkage. The Superior came with a flexible Gold-N-Rod nylon pushrod that is 36 inches long. I purchased a perfect replacement. I can install it but it will never give me the control a solid linkage can give. Rather then just putting it together tonight I'm going to wait and review it after flying my other helicopter in the morning. I'm meeting cbflys at the field so I'll bring the Superior so he can look at it and we can throw some ideas around.

So that's it for tonight. I see I've had 200 hits in the last 2 day so a few people are following along. Please everyone, let me know what you think so far.

[DVS]

I've been watching your thread and have been enjoying it. :) I like what you did for the anti-rotation bracket. :cool:
I'm very surprised that rock is just hanging in the corner (pix in post #174) and not trying to get in on the thread. :rolleyes:

[schluterdude]

lookin' good dan!!! weird about your tail linkage, my heli-star has a sweet set-up, solid rod all the way back with guides that wrap around the boom. silky smooth yet VERY stiff... lemme know if you want some pics...

[Dan]

Schluterdude, please send me some pics. I'm looking at options.

DVS, good eyes. Rock is itching to get back in the thread.

[schluterdude]

here we go with the pics. the first is just the servo (obviously), the second is a small plastic piece that is actually two parts, clamping together to form a guide for the pushrod. sorry it's fuzzy, my camera kinda sucks, and that was the best of the bunch :mad:
The last is the guide i was really talking about. my birdie came with them, i would've thought yours had the same system. it's drag free, and rock solid. that pushrod just doesn't move around at all unless the servo tells it too. see everyone, they kinda knew what they were doing in the '80s!!! there are three of those supports going down the boom, and then terminates with a ball link on a bellcrank.

[cbflys]

Still don't fly, but lookin' good ...

[cbflys]

Come on man, get some fuel in me ...

[schluterdude]

ahhh... very good grasshopper.... danielson, fly you must!

[Dan]

Nice pictures Chuck, too bad that new lens you were using couldn't make me look younger, thinner or handsome. What good is it? Did you get anything good of me flying the 500?

I think I worked out my rudder linkage. I got a 42" long carbon fiber rod. Working with a carbon fiber rod can get a little tricky because it is a conductor so if it touches any metal on the helicopter it will generate interference. I don't think it can hurt the Spektrum system I use but it is a good rule to make sure there is no metal to metal or metal to carbon fiber unintentional contact.

The tail is very smooth now and I'm sure it will work better than the flexible rod ever could have.

[schluterdude]

so when does she go up!? too windy for me to go fly today, so someone has to!

[cbflys]

Did you get anything good of me flying the 500?
Here ya go ... ;)

[schluterdude]

did the 500 make it down in one piece? :D

[Dan]

Now that the weekend is over I'm going to wait until the new servos arrive and only do the set up once. I'm sure I'll be flying in frount of the house before the end of the week and I'll be at the park with it next weekend.

Chuck, I know I said a picture of me flying the 500 but I was thinking of a picture of the helicopter being flown by me, not of me flying, which is what I asked for. Do you have a picture of the helicopter flying while I'm flying it but not in the picture? I think you're pulling my leg.

And yes Schluterdude, I flew the 500 twice today and it is still in one piece :)

[schluterdude]

which servo's are you going to run in her? the same as the heli-baby?

[Dan]

I purchased the JR Spektrum DS821 on a buy it now auction on E-bay. They are digital and plenty good for this build and you can get them on E-bay for around $20.00 each.

I purchased The Futaba S9452 digital servos for the swash on the T-Rex 600. I'm running 401 gyros in the Superior and the T-Rex and both tails will have Futaba S9254's on them.

[cbflys]

I think you're pulling my leg.
Yes I was ;)

Here's your 500 in all its glory ...

[schluterdude]

sharp bird dan

[blax1]

sharp bird dan
Roger that!!.......... :cool:
Nice photo as well.. Chuck

[Dan]

Nice photo Chuck, but wasn't that helicopter 200 feet away?

Yes guys that 500 is a sweet machine

Nobody commented on my tail solution so I asked Rock to have a look at it. It's not like him to give any positive reinforcement but so far all he has said is "I want to see it work with the new servos" so maybe he likes it.

[cbflys]

but wasn't that helicopter 200 feet away?
At least. Photo looks pretty good considering. 300mm lense with Image Stabilization. Still figuring out how it works. Hopefully I'll have it nailed down by IRCHA :confused:

[schluterdude]

what's up with the electrical tape? or is it a carbon rod running inside of a guide?? chuck, might see you at ircha... the wife has the weekend off, so i might talk her into going up there for the weekend...

[Dan]

Schluterdude, the plastic guide tube that I used in 2 places is blue so I attached it with black tape so everything would be black.

With the radio set-up now I thought it would be a good idea to start it up again. I can’t fly it with the current servo arms but I can run the engine. Or so I thought. I started the engine 2 weeks ago but the head wasn’t on it. The Align head is big and I can’t get anywhere near the starting cone with my current starter.

[Dan]

So I pulled the cone off to see if the starting attachment for the T-rex 600 would fit but it doesn’t. The shaft is 6mm on the Superior which is much larger than the T-rex.

Unfortunately Rock was watching me and came over to have a look.

[schluterdude]

sullivan sells starter shaft extensions for such instances... or, i could send you mine which is broached (see earlier posts) and you could send me yours, that way you can use a hex-start shaft... even steven in the end.

[Dan]

When he was done laughing he asked me how my poll was going and I said 100% of the people voting believed that this helicopter would fly better than it did when it was new.

He said how are you going to fly it if you can’t start it? Then he said I needed to add another choice to my poll. He said the first choice should be “For Static Display Only”.

Man I hate that guy.

[Dan]

Schluterdude, how about this for a deal? I’ll mail you my cone and my old Superior head that you can use for parts and you overnight your cone to me so I have it by Wednesday and can get in the air.

That will teach Rock not to shoot his mouth off.

[schluterdude]

sounds like a plan. be sure to bring rock out for the first flight so that you can watch his jaw hit the ground when he eats his own foot.... ;)

[cbflys]

chuck, might see you at ircha...

Looking forward to it. Stop by the RC Heli booth ...

[schluterdude]

she's in the mail dan, be there wed. i'll have a tracking number for you in the morning...

[Dan]

Well Schluterdude, The cone and the old Superior head are on their way to you. You should get them Thursday. I had to take the head apart last night so it would fit in the box but it’s all there. I didn’t have any packing material around so I taped everything inside the box to the sides and bottom of the box. Sorry about that.

On the subject of servos it appears I’ve made a very bad choice in selecting the DS821’s for the Superior. No wonder they were so cheap and on E-Bay. I got a message from cbflys that Spektrum issued a warning not to use them in any helicopter over a 30 size. They are greatly affected by vibration and can sheer. Chuck, feel free to expand on this or correct me. I don’t think anybody’s picking a servo on my say but just in case forgetaboutit as far as DS821’s and 50 or 60 size helicopters.

[cbflys]

Check the 'Tech Notes' at the bottom of this page ...

http://www.spektrumrc.com/Products/TechnicalSpecs.aspx?ProdID=SPM3702

[schluterdude]

wow, so where's the failure point? the gear train, sero arm, mounting tabs??? they make it sound like an end of the world servo...

[Dan]

Schluterdude, I'm pretty sure the top gear that the servo arm is attached to breaks and the servo arm detaches from the servo. If anybody knows better or different please let us know.

This build gets easy and it gets hard. At times you really need to look hard at the facts and try to understand what you are seeing. I spent some time e-mailing cbflys yesterday to discuss the servo problem. He recommended that I use HS-965MG servos for the swash on this build and I'm convinced he is right.

I ordered them today from Tower Hobby but they won't be here until Monday. That is killing me but Chuck seems ok with it. That might have something to do with the fact that he is out of town this coming weekend.

The old servos made 28 years ago didn't have much power. For that reason the bellcrank arms gave a 50% leverage advantage to the servo by making the servo side of the bellcrank 50% longer than the swashplate side.

What that did is make it impossible to get more than 5 degrees positive or negative pitch on the head with full mechanical throw on the servos. This was not a problem for the Superior with the old head and flat bottomed blades. Five degrees pitch was plenty. We need 12 degrees plus and minus for the T-Rex head to work the way it was made to.
We have another factor here to consider. The gearing is very different. I think the head speed will be very high at full throttle. If you run too much below full throttle the engine will not have the required torque to maintain head speed as you add pitch.

We’re having fun now!

[Dan]

The bellcrank on the T-Rex 600 has a 100% disadvantage in leverage on the servo side. The servo side of the bellcrank is half the length of the swashplate side. That way you get twice as much movement on the swashplate as you require on the servo. When that happens you need very strong servos and a push/pull linkage.

I’m sure this helicopter will fly fine without the push/pull linkage and I’m sure that if I can get 9 or 10 degrees plus and minus on the pitch it will be plenty. The higher head speed will help compensate for the reduced pitch. And all of the numbers we are talking about here on the T-Rex 600 are set-up numbers for extreme 3D flying. I think this helicopter will roll and flip fine, even hover upside down (with some else at the controls), it just won’t tic-toc or do any other extreme maneuver.

I think if I flip the bellcranks over so that the servo side is 50% shorter than the swashplate side and I put longer arms on the servos I can get to where I need to be.

[vermonster]

I think if I flip the bellcranks over so that the servo side is 50% shorter than the swashplate side and I put longer arms on the servos I can get to where I need to be.

If you flip the bellcranks are your rods still going to be 90 degrees to the swash. Another words will the swash still connect @120 degrees.

[Dan]

If you flip the bellcranks are your rods still going to be 90 degrees to the swash. Another words will the swash still connect @120 degrees.


When I'm done they will, but you are correct. I’ll need to drill some new mounting holes for the bellcranks. If I just flip the bellcranks the push rods will be 10mm out of position. I measured the spacing on the bellcranks this morning and from the mounting screw hole center to the swashplate link is now 20mm’s and from the servo arm link the mounting screw hole is 30mm’s. Here I would like an engineer to comment. So, cbflys, as long as all of the bellcrank linkage balls are the same 10mm’s out of position will it still work correctly?

In looking at the pictures now it appears that moving the bellcranks back 10mm isn’t going to be too difficult but I’ll need to add a piece of carbon fiber to the frame in order to close the access hole by the mainshaft because the mounting bolt for the elevator bellcrank will fall in that opening. That access hole was for the old pitch slider so closing it won’t hurt anything. Also the linkage rods I just made that go from the servos to the bellcranks will all be 10mm’s too long and the servos will need to be raised by 10mm’s so that everything stays at 90 degrees.

I can’t help thinking about that movie “The Butterfly Effect”, you know what I mean?

[cbflys]

Dan, Ideally you need to keep everything at 90 degrees. Once you deviate from that you run the risk of asymetrical throws. That being said, the asymetry can be compensated for with the programmable mixes. I'd try to make sure that you can keep the 3 pushrods going from the bellcranks to the swash the same lenght and that all three have the same geometry (angle from the bellcrank to the swash). The rest can be done with radio programming finesse.

Regarding the linkages going from the servos to the bellcranks, you should try to get the mechanical setup to where the servos are operating at close to 100% in the End Point (Travel Adjust). Choose positions on the servo output arms that will give you the collective and cyclic range you're looking for while keeping the servo EPAs close to 100% will help minimize any loss in resolution. But you'll also have to balance this with the increase or decrease in torque at the swash that results from the different moments on the servo output arms and the bellcranks.

[schluterdude]

looks like he might have to move the hole over a bit to maintain the correct lines, but, shouldn't be difficult, just need a dril and good eyes!

[Dan]

When I got home tonight the package from Schluterdude was here with the cone from his helicopter which he machined to accept a modern hex starter shaft. I sent him my cone which he will need to machine before he can start his helicopter again. I also sent him all of the left over Schluter head parts I have here so he can keep his bird flying.

When I placed it on the helicopter it was a perfect fit. Rock came running over and said "This looks promising, can we fly now?"

I told him not quite yet. That there was a problem with the geometry in the swash linkage and I needed to take the helicopter apart again.

[schluterdude]

oh, so now he's starting to get antsy, eh??? man, this guy needs to pick a side to be on and stay there!

btw, i don't know how much you remember about starting your old bird, but i will say this... that starter cone set-up schluter used kinda sucks. no matter how much loctite i used, it would still slip on the start shaft ever couple of flights, needing to be tightened up. i had another cone at one point, tried drilling and tapping a hole 90 deg's to that one and making the flats larger, but it didn't really help. so, just keep an allen key and some loctite with you when you goto the field. no bigger bummer than having that slip on you and killing an otherwise perfect afternoon because it decided to slip and you don't have the key for it... other than that, worked great every other time!!! :D

i don't know if i'm the only on to of ever had that problem, not many people around nowadays that fly them with any remote sense of regularity, and definatly none near me...

[Dan]

Thank you Schluerdude, I notice you only had one of the two hex screws in the cone. I always used both with loctite and it never slipped on me. That might just be luck. But Rock and I really went at it tonight and I want to get back to that right now.

I told him that I needed to reverse and move the bellcranks. That I also needed to get the torch out and take apart all the linkage I just made because it was all now 10mm too long. Then I was going to need to make shims and raise the swash servos 10mm. Of coarse I couldn't do that until the replacement servos got here because I had purchased the wrong ones at auction. But once that all came together we could fly.

He went nuts on me. He said I didn't have a clue as to what I was doing. He said this thing is never going to fly and he wasn't hanging around until it self-destructed in mid air. He called me things I haven't been called since my first wife left me in 1982.

I said where are you going, how are you going to get around? He said he
could take care of himself and I should just worry about my own sorry self.

[Dan]

So the next thing I know he's leaving! Like walking out the front door! I said if you leave here you are never coming back. He said "fine".

[Dan]

So I slammed the door behind him and Rock is gone.





I think I'm beginning to miss him.

[blax1]

Holy Crap--------Who's gunna fly it................? :eek:

[Dan]

You know Blax1, I’m not even ready to deal with that yet. I’m still so upset about what happened. He didn’t come home last night so this morning I hung a sign on my front door to keep him out.

[Dan]

Here’s a close-up, I’m thinking of having this picture put on a “T” shirt with the caption:

I Survived ROCK HARD

I guess I won’t be able to wear it to church, or anyplace else for that matter. Everybody would be looking down thinking about my privates. That would be a big change for me!

[schluterdude]

wow, he was an ass, but, he will be missed. who know's he's dramatic, he'll show up again at some point just like a cat... act like they don't need you, until they're hungry, then they're your best friend!!!

[cbflys]

I hope that SOB isn't heading my way, cause I'm not taking him in.

[schluterdude]

count me in for a t-shirt if you make 'em!

i was thinking about your linkages. i think that as long as the bellcrank is square the the shaft (viewed from the side), and the linkages going to the head are square (again from the side), that's ok. now, when viewed from above, the linkage should be sqare to the servo. if it is angled up (when viewed from the side) going to the crank, that may not matter. it won't give you differential throw as every other axis is square or parallel depending on the referance point you are using. it will however give you a non-linear feel to the stick. the easiest way to explain this is an example from old race cars. they would have their throttle linkage look kind of like a cam going down to the carb. this would make it sensitive at lower settings for going around the twisties, and numb it down at higher throttle positions where it didn't really matter. i'll see if i can't find a pic of the linkage floating around somewhere. old datsun and toyota's, fiats, etc used them allot.

so, i think you'd be ok without having the 1cm. shims under the servo's, but, it is the "right" way to do it, so, go for it! or, instead of having goofy looking spacers, you could buy some lite ply at the hobby shop and re-make the radio tray, with the center portion (where the gyro would mount) the correct height so that way it still remains looking "stock" and doesn't look like seat of the pants engineering....

we hear anything from rock? any sightings? i'd check the gutter first. he probably realized what he had done, got plastered, and wound up face down in the gutter... or he's living it up at a strip club talking about how in the "good old days" he was a helicopter pilot...

[Dan]

That linkage should really be changed all together and I’m noodling that out now. The servos rotate is on a horizontal axes and the bellcranks rotate on a vertical axes. The servos should be turned on there side and the servo arms should be made to 20mm to match the bellcrank arm side that they attach to. While turning them it would not be a problem to set everything in all of the linkages to a perfect 90%. I have some light ply and can change the servo mounts. Then I’ll repaint the platform. I might even polish that pipe while the paint dries.

I haven’t heard from Rock but Ivonna dropped by last night. She is looking hot, she died her hair blond. I said “Mrs. Humpalot, I’ll call you if he shows up” and I took her number.

[vermonster]

I hope that SOB isn't heading my way, cause I'm not taking him in.

Well just got in from work, and guess what. Rock is on my doorstep! He said he just had to get a way. The Superior build was driving him crazy. Julie said he arrived today and said he was a freind of mine from Long Island. They had a very long talk and Julie kinda took a liking to him. She set him up downstairs in the heli quarters. He said he's going to relax tonight but wanted to get back on the forum and take a look at the Superior build. He said the train ride from Penn station to White River was a long one.

[vermonster]

Well after having a beer with Rock. I fired up the laptop in the heliquarters and let Rock get on the forum. He said he was pissed at the "I Survived Rock Hard" T shirt. He asked if he could stay awhile and build the 450 with me.

[blax1]

lol....... :rolleyes:

[Dan]

Guys, I need some help here. I ordered new bellcranks so I can run the 600 head at its full potential. In order to do that I need to use an engine that will give me the head speed I need at full throttle. The gearing on the Superior is 9:1 where the gearing on the 600 is 8.5:1.

What I'm trying to figure out now is what the Horse power and RPM range is on my current engine. The engine is a O.S. Max .61 Heli motor that is about 28 years old. I have no documentation for it.

Does anyone have the docs or know where to find them? I thought the head was going to run fast but in fact it is going to run slow unless the RPM range on the .61 O.S. motor is higher than the Hyper 50 that comes with the T-rex 600 Super Pro.

HELP!

[blax1]

http://manuals.hobbico.com/osm/61vf-manual.pdf

I haven't finished yet, post back soon........ :cool:

http://www.osengines.com/

Here's a review not sure about the model though, but it must be in the ball park :D

http://www.osengines.com/reviews/osmg0561-rcr.html

http://www.osengines.com/engines/fx.html

[schluterdude]

dan, the nice thing is you don't really have to use a helicopter engine... these were designed in the days of allot of people not having access to the new styles. granted, many people did still spend the dignifigantly extra money for a heli engine, but, and airplane engine was often substitued. so, if you find a screamer of an airplane engine, that could work. just keep an eye on the head temp. buy one of those monitors guys with r/c cars use, they work great, and they're only like 15 bucks.

the .50 hyper might work, but you'd have to check the crank diameter and such. general rule of thumb is less displacment, more revs, so..........

plus, any new engine is gunna smoke our engines for output anyway...

[Dan]

Here’s what I’ve figured out so far. In reviewing the files in the links blax1 sent me it would appear the O.S. Max 61 has a maximum operating speed of 17,000 rpm where it develops 1.8 PS. Its maximum PS is 1.9 which it develops at 16,000 rpm.

The Hyper 50 has a maximum operating speed of 20,000 rpm. Its maximum PS is also 1.9 which it develops at 17,000 rpm.

If these numbers are correct the .61 will get the Superior head speed up to a maximum of 1,889 rpm and will reach maximum PS at 1,778 rpm where as in the T-rex 600 with the Hyper 50 the maximum head speed is 2,353 and will reach maximum PS at 2,000 rpm.

I think its going to fly fine with the old engine because the head operates well from 1,500 – 2,200 RPM.

Would anyone care to give some input or make another suggestion?

[schluterdude]

sounds like it should work for now... the project's costing enough as is. try it first with your current motor, then, if it doesn't work as you think it should, try a new motor. that's what i would do...

[Dan]

I’m with you TJ; I think I should button it up next weekend, fly it and put a tachometer on it. We’ll take it from there. I ordered the bellcrank set for the 600 and purchased the materials to rotate the servos. I think it will be a very nice set-up.

[schluterdude]

as you know, i've been hmming and hawwwing over servos for my bird, lemme know how yours work out...

[Dan]

With Rock out of the way for now I'm able to do some serious work on the Superior. I have the new bellcranks. This picture shows an old one and a new one in there mounting positions. It is clear to see why when I hooked everything up last time I only had + and - 5 degrees of pitch. With the new bellcranks I'm expecting to get + and - 14 degrees.

[Dan]

I was trying to figure out how to lock the head so that could mount the bellcranks and end up with perfect 90 degree angles to both the swashplate and the servos. I know they sell stuff like that but it's Sunday night and I want to do this now. So I cut up a piece of plywood and got out my clamps.

[Dan]

I feel I’ve got the Aileron and Pitch Bellcranks set up right.

[Dan]

I have a clean 90 degree angle to the swashplate from both the side view and front or back view. That took a little doing. I haven’t mounted the Elevator Bellcrank yet because that one is a lot harder because of the frame configuration but I’ll attack that tonight. Unfortunately I’m not going to be able to attach push/pull linkage but that should not affect anything other than maintenance.

[schluterdude]

i can almost smell the nitro in the air..... :D

[Dan]

I’ve got 2 spots where the elevator bellcrank makes contact with the frame or a screw head at either the top or bottom of its travel depending on where I drill the mounting hole.

[schluterdude]

what about just changing out the cap head for a pan head screw?

[cbflys]

Or put a spacer between the bellcrank and the frame side.

[vermonster]

I’ve got 2 spots where the elevator bellcrank makes contact with the frame or a screw head at either the top or bottom of its travel depending on where I drill the mounting hole.

Rock Say's " your making a mountain out of a mole hill "

I said sheeesh leave the guy alone.

[Dan]

I already changed the cap screw to a pan head; I think you can see that in the picture if you look closely. Making that change, then shimming and raising the pivot point takes care of the clearance problem but the ball on the bellcrank that holds the link to the swashplate will not be in line with the swashplate ball. I would need to find a ball with a longer stem. I don’t know what the chance of finding one the correct size is.

Chuck, would it matter if the link was not straight side to side if all motion was up and down and the bellcrank, link and swashplate were all at 90 degrees to each other? Remember this is the elevator so the side to side angle would remain constant throughout the up and down travel.

[cbflys]

Does it matter? - yes. But how much it matters is the real question.

Remember, ideally you'd like to keep the geometry of all three linkages the same. If they are different you'll get control interaction because the link that's on an angle will require the servo to move further - so it will take longer to move the the swash the same distance as the other two. I'd strive to keep them the same if it is at all possible.

As far as a ball link with an extension, they're pretty easy to find and/or fashion one up. Miniature Aircraft has a pretty good selection of ball links with tapered extensions. Also, the stock ball link that is used on the swashplate for attaching the elevator servo has a pretty long shaft on it. Perhaps you can trim that to the proper size?

[schluterdude]

if you can't find an extension, you could always buy some tubing that has the same id as the minor diameter of threads on your balls, then just tap it to put the ball in one side, and a small piece of threaded rod in the other...


i just said thread on your balls.... *butthead laugh* :D

[Ah Clem]

That machine is looking good Dan!

Was that your picture, in an older RC Heli magazine, flying a small Airwolf?

[Dan]

That machine is looking good Dan!

Was that your picture, in an older RC Heli magazine, flying a small Airwolf?



It sure was Ah Clem! That was the very first time I flew that helicopter and I didn't look like I was having fun.

It's good to hear from you. I hope you're still doing your rebuild project and that you're not still waiting for parts. Give us an update.

I solved my elevator bellcrank problem last night and started re-installing the servos. I'll get some pictures tonight and post them tomorrow. My wife was out last night and had taken my camera with her.

It looks like I have a full 14 degrees of pitch both positive and negative. It also appears the gearing is perfect for the 61 O.S. Max engine installed in it.

It now looks like the last set of changes will make it fully acrobatic. That will allow me show the few non-believers who have voted in the poll that it won’t fly any better than it did in the 1980’s that anything is possible.

To be fair, the pictures I posted showing the linkage as I first assembled it would make it appear that there would be no improved flight performance other than the CCPM conversion. That conversion alone with the limited swashplate movement from the short bellcrank arms would have reduced performance with those arms taking on the pitch control functions also. So those guys may have just been being nice and trying not to burst my bubble. I’d like you guys that voted no improvement to let me know if you still feel that way when you see the new set-up.

I got a lot done because my wife was out but I could have gotten even more done if Ivonna wasn’t hanging around talk about Rock and the kids. Their twin boys are grown and gone. They went into the service following in their fathers footsteps. She said they are coming to visit. I don’t know when she moved in and started thinking this was her home but it’s getting very crowded on the pool table cover these days.

[Dan]

I'm going to post about 6 pictures here in order to show the almost complete conversion of the CCPM controls that changed the pitch control from 5 degrees plus and minus to 14 degrees plus and minus.

First the old swashplate to bellcrank configuration which when turned on gave only plus and minus 5 degrees of pitch control.