in pursuit of 3D....A discussion of piro flips and many others

[aerodave]

I really liked the article in the (I think) June issue about piro flips. I liked the concept of building blocks/steps to learn this formidable skill. It seemed to me, after reading the article, that there are many ways to go about learning this move. The one thing that was totally agreed upon was that this is like a terminal (ha ha, that's funny) move. Meaning it is something to be learned after accomplishing orientations and a host of other difficult skills. Also, that merely learning a stick stirring timing isn't enough. You have to learn to fly through the move. So my question is, for those of you who have learned the piro flip, I'm just beginning to do the half piro flip with a real heli, what steps did you take to learn to fly through this move?

[heli-cuzz]

I agree, the article is great.
I'm not ready to jump into piro flips yet. I'm still learning to fly, although I do mess around with them sim.{Reflex}

[aerodave]

Dude,
you may not be ready for piro flips, but I saw the short vid with the aileron tic tocs. It was pretty sweet! I think you're past the 'learning to fly' stage....

[heli-cuzz]

Dude,
you may not be ready for piro flips, but I saw the short vid with the aileron tic tocs. It was pretty sweet! I think you're past the 'learning to fly' stage....

Thanks, dave. Gotta love the Caliber5 Hyper. High performance and quality at a great price. I own two now.

Let me rephrase that, learning to fly better.
I'm hoping to start piro-flips later this :D summer. I've been setting goals since the start of my rc heli piloting. A few more things to practice to the point of not having to think about what I'm doing and just go with the feel of how its suppose to be done. IMO, if you have to think about stick movements, most likely will result in a crash.

BTW, Welcome to the forum, Dave. :cool:

[aerodave]

So I've been doing half piro flips, where the tail makes one complete revolution for every flip, or 180 piro to inverted, finishing the piro as you finish the flip. Not too hard and getting me used to the feel of the move. That's with my Raptor. On the sim I'm working on doing one piro upright, flipping to inverted doing another piro, etc. Its lots harder than it sounds. I really like the concept of reducing this and other sophisticated moves into a subset of basics. Truly mastering the basics allows you to learn other moves much more quickly and do them correctly, too. There was a long thread that became a sticky in the RCU fixed wing 3D forum in which guys chimed in about their method of doing various moves. New folks could use this as a reference to learning to fly 3D. I think that's what's needed here. A point of discussion for all heli 3D flight. Let's get it going.......
Cuzz, you want to start it??? the thread, I mean?

[AaronS]

thanks for the kind words on that article! It has taken me a long time to feel proficient at piro flips, and I still feel like I have a long way to go. At this point I can piro flip all day long to the right and move the heli around where I want it, but I am just starting to piro flip to the left. It has taken me a good year to get it down from my first attempts. Once you start to be able to do it, it takes a lot of practice before it is under complete control and you can keep it where you want it.

[heli-cuzz]

So I've been doing half piro flips, where the tail makes one complete revolution for every flip, or 180 piro to inverted, finishing the piro as you finish the flip. Not too hard and getting me used to the feel of the move. That's with my Raptor. On the sim I'm working on doing one piro upright, flipping to inverted doing another piro, etc. Its lots harder than it sounds. I really like the concept of reducing this and other sophisticated moves into a subset of basics. Truly mastering the basics allows you to learn other moves much more quickly and do them correctly, too. There was a long thread that became a sticky in the RCU fixed wing 3D forum in which guys chimed in about their method of doing various moves. New folks could use this as a reference to learning to fly 3D. I think that's what's needed here. A point of discussion for all heli 3D flight. Let's get it going.......
Cuzz, you want to start it??? the thread, I mean?


That sounds like a good idea. Tell ya what.... You come up with a catchy title, nothing cheesy either, I'll start a thread, or you could even start a thread, don't be shy, I'll reply. Think up something good. :cool:

[aerodave]

It started last winter. A few of us heli pilots wanted to fly indoors on Sunday mornings. Only trouble was, we didn't have a place to fly. So we began haunting the local university's gymnasiums which, of course, were closed at the time. Getting in the buildings wasn't much trouble, But the gyms (there are many) were mostly locked. So we would split up. A few slightly hung over heli dudes toting all manner of E heli gear shouting into cell phones, "these floors all look the same." Where are you?" "I found an open one, we're in!" These weekly adventures took on a delightfully cloak and dagger feel. In time, we came to enjoy the hunt as much as the flying. Usually we could fly in a gym for close to an hour before being discovered by a weekend janitor. So now its spring. Finding it impossible to abandon the antisocial tendencies we had developed over winter, we continue to fly in out of the way, impromtu settings. Industrial parking lots, empty school yards, whatever. We've gotten really comfortable flying with each other. We take turns, critiquing our flights, encouraging an attempt at a new move, successful or not. Its become kind of a think tank for aerobatic pursuits with helicopters. We often talk about how to do different moves. Like a 540 stall turn. There's one guy in our group who likes to begin the rotation before the heli stops ascending. It gives the move a very smooth, flowing appearence. I like to let the heli stop, hesitate for a split second and then rotate, more of a precise look. So this is what we do, pretty much all the time. E mailing each other 10 times a day at work, just hooked on heli aerobatics. I thought it would be great to get a discussion going like that on this forum. So this is about everyone posting their thoughts on how to perform 3D aerobatics. Let's talk about everything from loops and rolls to piro tic tocs. And don't worry if you're not an expert. I'm not either. In fact, in my local flying group none of us are. But we're trying. That's the key. Feel free to post your ideas, questions and thoughts on heli aerobatics. If we get it wrong, so be it. There are enough true heli experts on this site to set us straight. So get involved. Let's tear up this thread and then wear out those sims and eventually dominate our local heli scenes. Somebody's going to. It might as well be us.

Dave

[DJB2.0]

Look at THIS (http://www.rchelicopter.co.uk/moves.htm#) link. I think it's a pretty good start.

[heli-cuzz]

Nice thread, Aero.
Love the hunting for a place to fly story. Reminds me of my sk8brding days, trying to find places to sk8 in Boston, then evading the police, only to move to another spot.

DJ, I've seen that link before and thanks for posting it up. A lot of valuable info describing the different 3D manuevers.

[aerodave]

Great link, D.J. ok, so I would like to comment/pose a question about death spirals. I read the description on DJ's link, exactly right. 1/4 for to KE, forward or aft cyclic, wait for the oohs and ahs and pull out upright or inverted. My preference is to pull out inverted with a crisp, snappy quarter roll. What I have found, and this may be painfully obvious, is that it really helps to wait just a split second before adding negative collective. Get the disc level first so it pops to inverted doesn't drift. This happens really quick and seems kind of subtle to me, but it makes the heli sit motionless after the move. Just a bit more dramatic in my opinion. Any other tricks to this seemingly simple move? I know a guy who does death spirals perfectly with his Fury, but the tail sits low in the rotation with his Raptor. So I'm going to be bold and say there is a wealth of subtlety that makes these maneuvers really pop. Make the move the flyer's own. I'd really like to hear about those issues.

Sorry this is being so long, but 'cuzz, I'm really glad you brought up skateboarding. I'm a junior high teacher and my kids often practice stationary boarding moves in my room (against all rules, of course :D ) waiting for the bell. The hair splitting subtleties of what they work on is astounding. They've only got their feet to act on this board to make it do all kinds of complicated flips, rotations,etc, and then land perfectly. That's pretty cool, but what's profound to me as a heli pilot is their discussion about what went wrong with a given attempt and what needs to be improved. So intricate. So go to it, dudes. School me on this death spiral and we'll go from there.

Dave

[heli-cuzz]

That's awesome, letting the sk8 rats practice there ollies in class. :D
I feel sk8brding has helped speed up my piloting learning curve a great deal.
For instance, the ollie 360 flip is very similar the heli move the chaos, if the sk8brd remained spinning and flipping in the air, that's how the chaos is suppose to look. The disc should look like a spinning globe.

I do the death spiral on the sim and its a lot easier than the name given. LoL

[DJB2.0]

Piro flips kick me my ass. I know it is a core staple to any 3D flying, so I thought I'd better learn them. It might be fortunate for me I dont really aspire to do be a hard core 3D pilot. I'll do it anyway, though.
At first, it took me a while to realize I was stirring the cyclic the wrong way. Once I figured that part out, I started working on the timing portion.
I can do them, but they are about the sloppiest piro flips anyone has ever seen.

When I was trying to learn it, I spent countless hours on the sim, and 99/100 times, the heli would try and get away from me.

Its like trying to pat your head and rub your tummy at the same time for me. The part that is STILL screwing me up with the piro flip, is getting the collective down. It seems I cant do both things at once.

I blame it all on dyslexia.

[heli-cuzz]

That's awesome DJ, just don't let them kick your helis ass. :cool:

IMO, I feel every possible orientation should be learned and flown without having to think about what to do next. It should come natural, when that time comes for me, then I'll start practicing piro-flips with my real heli. :cool:

[aerodave]

I've been doing what the mag article calls half piro flips. I finally did them with my trex the other day. I'm with DJ, though, the collective, even for that watered down half piro flip is really tough. I can't seem to get the heli to stop coming towards me at the end of the move. I only do one rotation/flip and then stop and get my bearings. Its a timing issue, just like perfecting stationary flips. I'll get it, but for now it feels hopeless. At least I'm not crashing. As I mentioned in an earlier post, doing an upright piro (like the article said) then forward flipping to inverted, inverted piro forward flipping to upright is a great exercise. I can't do it. If the disc is at all unlevel when you finish the half flip, you're chasing the piro all over the place. But what great training. So I've been working hard on stationary piros upright and inverted, then I'll get better at the move I just described. I think this kind of practice is going to yeild serious orientation skills. Of course, as Cuzz pointed out, that should be accomplished before attempting piro flips. *sigh*

[heli-cuzz]

Great thread, 3D discussion.
Sweet, dave, half piro flip. Oh, and ya gotta love the Trex. You mentioned not crashing, that's what its all about, bringing the heli home as you brought it to the field... RTF and I'm stoked on hearing successful attempts.

Here's an exercise I practice. Straight forward and basic exercise. Start with four stationary back flips, then four stationary rolls to the right, four stationary forward flips, onto the final four stationary rolls to the left.
Then spin 180 and proceed to do the same nose-in. I find this a great pitch management exercise for me. Load and unload dem blades :D

[DJB2.0]

Im actually pretty good with collective. Its just managing collective during a piro flip.

I can do hurricanes and whatever else. That is the ultimate test of collective management IMO. maybe I should try piro hurricanes? :D

[aerodave]

That's awesome DJ! I have a hard time making Hurricanes 90 degrees bank, if that make any sense. I've worked a lot on collective and I'm getting way better at not overloading the head. What still gets me a bit though is managing collective during stationary moves like flips to keep the heli in one place. I worked a lot on it today with stationary rolls and they're getting WAY better. But then I was trying to do a forward flip on take off in idle up on the ground. Rather than soft start into idle up I tried to spool up enough and hit the switch just when it got light on the skids. I hit it too early and stripped a main gear. Oh well.... That's why I have 2 trex's. Anyway, another move I'm working on is backwards rolling circles. I've worked hard on upright backwards, its fine, I do it all the time. I'm comfortable with backwards inverted on the sim, but have only done it a few times with a real heli. So the problem with this move for me is flowing in and out of the 2 orientations while rolling. It shows up for me on elevator. I'm getting better, and am pretty close but not there yet. To practiice, on the sim I do a curcuit upright backwards, then roll inverted, do another curcuit backards inverted, roll upright, etc. Its helping. But in real life there is a lot to go wrong....

[heli-cuzz]

Dave, stationary flips requires quick movements of the collective stick.

I was practicing something I tried last year. I worked it on the sim then took it to the field.

Think of a 540 stall, but instead of a piro, as the heli goes vertical unload blades to 0 degrees and give full aileron input. The heli twists going up to its peak, then decends down still in a twisting motion, once the rotor disc is facing me, let off on the aileron and pull back full elevator. I don't know if there is a name for this, but I call it the twister. :D

It looks really :cool: I'll post up a vid of it later today.

[aerodave]

and then recover backwards inverted? Yeah, man! We do that over here, too! Awesome move. I've done it with my Raptor, but haven't tried it with the 'rex yet. Depending on how high you get, and what's happening with the rotation you can recover backwards upright by giving down elevator or backwards inverted like you said by giving up. Sweet, dude! Can't wait for the vid!

[DJB2.0]

Speaking of backwards flight, I've been practicing that quite a bit lately. Doing some extremely fast backwards low to the deck, also includes practicing some tail slides.

[aerodave]

DJ,
I work on that quite a bit too. I find its hard to maintain a cinsistent altitude when changing directions in a figure 8, or doing a circuit. So Like if its not a consistent turning radius like in a circle I have a hard time keeping it from ballooning, I guess you'd say

Cuzz,
When I do that move you call the twister, I find I can rotate until it starts dropping and then I tend to just stay with the first orientation it hits, like the first half revolution on the descent, I leave it there and recover inverted or upright. So I'm not really twisting on the way back down. Gotta get braver......

[AaronS]

this is a great thread, one thing I am working on at this point is piro flipping to the left, I can go right from tail in and nose in and pretty well keep it in one place or move it around. Now I am just starting to get some piros flips to the left to look about right. it feels really weird going the other way, but the challenge is worth it. My bud Nick Maxwell has picked up a new move where he does a piro loop, but switches up the piro direction every quarter of the loop. It looks really cool, and he is able to maintain the speed and shape of the loop during the multiple transitions. With my flying right now I have become very graceful and flowing with the basics, and I can do piro flips, but I want to perfect my piro loops, piro tic tocks, and piro funnels, all of which I can do sort of already. I am really good at throwing the heli around and doing cool stuff, but most of it is not specific maneuvers, I just go with it. I need to practice more specific maneuvers and get back into a practice mentality. anyway, this is a great thread, keep it up! :cool:

[heli-cuzz]

Cuzz,
When I do that move you call the twister, I find I can rotate until it starts dropping and then I tend to just stay with the first orientation it hits, like the first half revolution on the descent, I leave it there and recover inverted or upright. So I'm not really twisting on the way back down. Gotta get braver......

I've done it a few different ways on the exit. As the heli goes vertical {boom to ground}immediately go to 0 pitch, start the twist while still ascending, as the heli stops, its about 3/4 through one full{twist}rotation, as it starts descending keep full aileron and 0 pitch.
I've gotten 3 full rotations at my best attempt from about 150 to 200 feet with my Caliber5{1 full one before descending then two in its descent} Its a bit scary when pulling out close to the deck as it slides rapidly through the air to the ground. I usually try to view my maneuvers a couple of steps ahead before actually entering them.

It is a great thread, Aaron. :cool:

[aerodave]

I got 2 full rotations last night, pretty good for me.... I was flying at this place that has a hill on one end of the field, about 60 feet tall. Its a steep slope but it starts gradually from level ground. Its the kind of hill you'd ride a mountain board down (guess how I know?). So I would fly low, left to right (hill is on the right side), hug the hill, making the heli look like it was in a half pipe. Then it took lots of collective to get enough pop over the top before starting the rotation. All very, very cool. But I found it difficult, when using that much collective, even just for a second, to get right back to zero pitch because i wanted the rotations to kind of look like they were coming off the hill. So I messed it up a few times, ending up with this goofy looking vertical barrel roll thing. My point is, establishing zero collective in the middle of a move is a basic element of 3D flight. One of my favorite sayings is that any move is made up of a subset of basics. Perfecting those basics to be consistent makes learning new moves, however complicated, much easier. It keeps you from having to "re invent the wheel" everytime you learn something new. Obviously I'm working on something pretty simple. But apply that concept of breaking a move down to its subset of basic elements to what you're working on. I think thats key to developing consistency and polish.

[heli-cuzz]

That's awesome, dave. :cool: I know what you mean with the 1/2pipe hill. That's how I try to pull out with vertical dives and such. Maneuver, hit the transition and flatten out like a sk8brd ramp, transition, go vertical, maneuver.
I also found with my pitch management from beginning to now. I'm much smoother and have the quickness needed. Now I need to get faster stronger digi servos for my heli.
I do bang the sticks, but with much more precision now. I'm definitely noticing my heli is working easier with correct loading, although I've been known to bog the engine down on occasion. :D

[aerodave]

Your heli is working easier with correct loading. well said. I admire the guys who run massive amounts of collective and only use it for a second, like to change directions in a tic toc and then they back off and use much less as the heli transitions to the next change point. I'd like to be able to do that....

Aaron, that's just sick, dude. completely sick. Piro loops with a change in piro diretion every quarter loop???

I remember last winter when everyone was flying G3.5 on line. I used to run into these guys, often from Germany who were doing the most amazing piro moves, using the tic toc concept to change direction instantly in whatever they were doing. Very cool.

[heli-cuzz]

The other day I was working on pausing in between the tic and toc. Kinda like little pitch pumps. It was really cool looking. Need to be very quick on the collective to make this work.

[aerodave]

pausing where??? you mean when its vertical, like a normal pitch pump? This sounds like a very cool idea. I would LOVE to see a vid of how you're handling the timing. So is it like tic, pitch pump toc, pitch pump tic... etc....like that? Something tells me this is hard.

[heli-cuzz]

pausing where??? you mean when its vertical, like a normal pitch pump? This sounds like a very cool idea. I would LOVE to see a vid of how you're handling the timing. So is it like tic, pitch pump toc, pitch pump tic... etc....like that? Something tells me this is hard.


Just exactly how you described. I think I'm gonna have to bring my head speed up to 1900 ish. I'm at a sweet 1800rpm now. Thinking if I turn 1900, I should get a much better pump on the vertical.
I'm still a bit sloppy with these tic, pitch pump toc, pitch pump tic, as this is a new area of flying for me, pumping the collective while the rotor disc is spinning vertical.
Gets my heart pumping right along too. :D

I'll try and get a vid of it asap.

[blax1]

I'll try and get a vid of it asap.
Oh yes !!! bring it on :cool: Please :)

[aerodave]

Cuzz,
I worked on this on the sim a bit and the timing is difficult. Mostly because it happens so fast. I thin more sim time would make it a pattern, which would help with the speed. Muscle memory and all that. Speaking of tic tocs, I've been noticing lately my tail on my trex has been drifting in tic tocs slightly. At first I thought it was the heli, but with the 401/9650 combo and the gain set right that's not likely. I think I'm getting just a bit of interaction on the left stick. So I'm ever so slightly giving rudder input. I could be wrong, though, because the tail is swinging a few degrees right, which means the nose is turning left which could be torque. Its just a few degrees each transition. Just enough to make the move drift a bit and get out of shape.......

[heli-cuzz]

Dave,
I'd have to say you're right with slight rudder inputs, there's also the possibility of adding a touch of elevator when in the aileron style tic-tocs to give the effect of a drifting tail. Same but opposite with vertical tic-tocs{boom up or down} only adding a little aileron while using all elevator will twist the heli slowly.

[aerodave]

Pulled off my first backwards rolls tonight! Pretty sweet! I was doing backwards curcuits and threw in some rolls, and continued backwards. Stayed pretty level, too.! I'm working onthis on the sim by doing one circut upright backwards and then rolling to inverted and repeating. I think this will get me actually flying through and correcting, so I can do backwards rolling circles. Anyway, when I pulled off the first rolls and kept going backwards a spectator went "wow!" It was awesome!

[heli-cuzz]

That's sweet, dave. :cool:
Backwards rolls are awesome. backwards heli anything is awesome.

[aerodave]

I'm putting in some time to spend on the sim these days. I'm trying to go slow and really learn my orientations. I'm working very hard on inverted piros, actually flying through them so I will have complete confidence correcting from any position. Actually I'm following the advice on the piro flip article in the mag. Just taking it slow and trying to do it right. Each day I'm trying to get teh trex to the park for a short flight, just to get my hands on the real thing. I want to be able to fly in closer more comfortably. The trex is really good for this kind of work. I have a friend who flies all his helis in closer than I do. It translates into better positioning, better presentation. When I watch a lot of guys fly, their moves are often amazing, but they miss out on a lot of drama by not placing them well in lets call it the box. Top flyers often do simpler stuff better. It evokes a "why didn't I think of that?" reaction. Well, I'm thinking of that.. We'll see what progress the summer brings. Off topic, I just have to say what a good thing this thread is. Its very helpful to articulate ideas. Often I come away from this thread with a fresh perspective on something that's been on my mind. BTW< Cuzz, where's that vid on the pitch pumping tic tocs??????

[heli-cuzz]

yeah, dude. That one looks sweet! I did that a couple of times yesterday from a side pass and then went into a backwards inverted circle. I'm a little uncomfortable doing it on take off just yet. Hey, from a side pass that's a good time for your pitch pump. You know, pull up into a wall (boom straight down, heli stops) pump the collective, pull neg and jet!. Hey, this is starting to sound like another thread.......


I've been doing that with a tail in take-off. On the sim I've been working on all different orientations. I was invited to fly at a big event. :eek: So I've been putting alot of sim time in and my Caliber5 is now dialed in perfect. I havn't flown the C-5 outside of my yard since my crash one week ago. Today, I put two tanks through it and fine tuning everything. This heli is a rocketship stock, with the new gear ratio, wow :D . I set my RevMax for a headspeed of 1800, 1900, and 2000rpm with the flip of a switch no matter what flite mode I'm in.
Dave, for the money and how well it works, you can't beat it. Consistent headspeed with no over-rev-ving for $89.00.

[aerodave]

Good tip. I was dealing with that today. Overspeeding when coming off the collective in descents. Maybe its time..... Hey, good for you, man. You deserve it. From what I know of you you're a good pilot and a class act. I wish you the best in your upcoming challenge.

[heli-cuzz]

Don't hesitate, buy one now, you won't regret it. :D
and thanks, I try my best. :)

[aerodave]

I spent a lot of time on the sim today. I'm thinking of concentrating on it for a bit. I went flying 5 times last week and the things I've been working on, however humble, are starting to come together. So I want to get deeper into orientations as they're manifested in different moves. I want to develop ideas for flying and just a style in general. I think the sim is the perfect place for this. I'll still be flying at least twice a week, but I see no reason to put my helis through the wear and tear of working these basics out. I just wanted to throw this out because I'd like to know how others use the sim, especially in the middle of the flying season when there really is a choice. Anyway, for me its time to develop some new things, and I'm going to begin that process on the sim.

[heli-cuzz]

I spent a lot of time on the sim today. I'm thinking of concentrating on it for a bit. I went flying 5 times last week and the things I've been working on, however humble, are starting to come together. So I want to get deeper into orientations as they're manifested in different moves. I want to develop ideas for flying and just a style in general. I think the sim is the perfect place for this. I'll still be flying at least twice a week, but I see no reason to put my helis through the wear and tear of working these basics out. I just wanted to throw this out because I'd like to know how others use the sim, especially in the middle of the flying season when there really is a choice. Anyway, for me its time to develop some new things, and I'm going to begin that process on the sim.

I fly the sim religously and beat on my heli religously. I know everybody has different views on orientations. I watch the nose and skids 100% while flying. I've tried different viewing methods for different orientations and they don't work for me. ex. flying the tail in reversed flite.

Its funny you mention beating the heli less and more sim time. I was thinking the same at dinner tonite..... LoL :) Then I went and flew at a baseball field for a tank.
Oh my heli, the new gear ratio is freakin 3Ding heli-tastic. OMG OMG :eek:
I love it!!!!!!!!!

[aerodave]

Good for you, man! Hey, I can't go out and buy a gov. 'cause this morning I spent that money on a new Muscle pipe and V blade tail rotor blades!!!!!

Yeah, I'll keep beating on my heli too. I just need time to develop a few things before trying them for real. For awhile recently, flying sessions were all about trying out and getting comfortable with in the real world what I had worked out (mostly over winter) on the sim. Now in my real world flying I'll continue to get more comfortable with those things, while on the sim practice stuff that's not ready for prime time, if you will....

So where is everybody else? This is a great thread!

[aerodave]

Aaron,
If you still read this one, I was watching one of your vids today. It was with the 600N. Very nice, very smooth. I got a lot out of watching it. Sometimes when you check out somebody's else's stuff, you can gain much from the different perspective. Gives you another way of looking at things. Anyway, I appreciate your flying. Nice, flowing style.

OK, so pitch...... I'm heading out in about an hour to do some flying with some guys. I'm going to be experimenting with running a good deal more pitch. I'm trying + - 13. I want 2 things from this. One, to not have to move the stick so far to get what I want. When I competed in fixed wing I used a very hot setup. It allowed me to be delicate and felt very effortless. I've never really liked the feel of collective because the way everyone recommends it be setup is very much like a fixed wing trainer. Its like they expect you to go from full throw to full throw. So if its more sensitive I think I'll be able to be more precise. That probably doesn't make any sense, But it works for my mind set. The otehr thing I want is to be able to punctuate moves abruptly. Changes of direction, better walls, and stops. I don't want to need everything I've got on tap just to complete an aileron tic toc. I've been working on a 14/14 setup on the sim and I really like the adjustability of the increased range. of pitch. And BTW, the Knight 50 is great in this regard. I went from a 10/10 to a 13/13 and there is plenty of movement left over on the mast. It handled it easily. So I'll try this tonight and let you know how it worked. Its a pretty major change in style so it won;t happen overnight, but I should at least know if its managable. At this point I'm excited.

[aerodave]

Well that was a waste of time :mad: It worked ok, I mean the pop was unbelieveable! But it was just too hard to stay out of the pitch. Just not worth the trade off at this time. Sigh.... Back to good ole 10/10

[blax1]

Well that was a waste of time :mad: It worked ok, I mean the pop was unbelieveable! But it was just too hard to stay out of the pitch. Just not worth the trade off at this time. Sigh.... Back to good ole 10/10
I thought you may get away with it on the sim, but in reality I would have thought, she would just bog at 14/14-13/13

[aerodave]

yeah, I only wanted it for occasional pops. I made 3 flights with it and the pops and pitch pumps were truly great. It was the rest of the time. Actually, this heli is so light, when I brought it back to 10/10 it still had lots and lots of pop. So I think I'll just leave it alone. I guess I learned something......

[blax1]

yeah, I only wanted it for occasional pops. I made 3 flights with it and the pops and pitch pumps were truly great. It was the rest of the time. Actually, this heli is so light, when I brought it back to 10/10 it still had lots and lots of pop. So I think I'll just leave it alone. I guess I learned something......
Yep me too :)

[aerodave]

I still want to experiment with this concept. This heli is very new so I think I'll just get used to it for a bit. Its all about touch. I think one thing that would help would be, in a 5 pt curve, making points 2 and 4 a bit deeper in the "V" meaning less pitch so it would be easier to get out of it. But for now, for my skill level (which is gonna change :D ) I'll stick with 10/10. Sorry to detour into setup....

[heli-cuzz]

I still want to experiment with this concept. This heli is very new so I think I'll just get used to it for a bit. Its all about touch. I think one thing that would help would be, in a 5 pt curve, making points 2 and 4 a bit deeper in the "V" meaning less pitch so it would be easier to get out of it. But for now, for my skill level (which is gonna change :D ) I'll stick with 10/10. Sorry to detour into setup....

Hi Dave, This may help a bit. Don't get all technical with a crazy set-up.

NOTES FROM JASON KRAUSE AND TODD BENNETT’S 3D SEMINAIR AT IRCHA 2002, AUGUST 17th 2002

-Set up:
-10/10 on a governor in all four flight regimes (Period!).
-Straight line pitch curves from -10 to +10, linier, not flatting out the middle.
-Straight line throttle curves in normal. “V” curve for idle up.
-Make sure your idle up (3D mode) has an increase in RPM, that way there will be no mistaking you're in the 3D mode. Normal 1450, 3D 1850 head speed.
-Set your Gyro gain at your flying style. You don’t need a twitchy high gain setting unless you’re losing the tail in backwards flight. Plus this will wear out your tail servo.
-Vibration will also wear out your servo and cause premature failure of other mechanical parts.
-Holding the radio: Fingers or just thumbs what every you are comfortable with as long as you don’t inadvertently input rudder while moving the collective and vice verse…
-20% expo at the most for them..

-3D:
+Always add collective (Pitch) first! (Period). Collective, positive or negative, should be added before cyclic to prevent the helicopter from stopping/stalling/hovering in the middle of a maneuver.

+Manage your power. If you add 10 degrees of collective and push in 5.5 degrees of cyclic you will bog down even a YS91 with 15.5 of overall pitch. In the hands of a pilot that uses power management and collective first the helicopter looks over powered; however, this very same helicopter in the hands of a stick bangger appears under powered with slow response due to poor management of power and inputs. One chief complaints pilots have is “my helicopter needs more power”, so they buy a big block YS80 or OS 90 and still have the problem. It’s not the power plant it's the flying style.

[aerodave]

That's really good information. I would very much like to read more. Is this information available online somehwere? After my little experiment I did return my setup to 10/10, all linear, just like it was before. No harm done. Its just an interesting topic to think and learn about. So anyway, is there a way to see more of this?

[heli-cuzz]

That's really good information. I would very much like to read more. Is this information available online somehwere? After my little experiment I did return my setup to 10/10, all linear, just like it was before. No harm done. Its just an interesting topic to think and learn about. So anyway, is there a way to see more of this?

Here's the whole page. I c&p'd last year for future reference. This is it from beginning to end. There's alot of useful info.


NOTES FROM JASON KRAUSE AND TODD BENNETT’S 3D SEMINAIR AT IRCHA 2002, AUGUST 17th 2002

They held an open forum under a tent and just fielded questions from the crowd with an occasional discussion on issues they had come up in the past. I found it to be very educational and funny at times, both are down to earth guys who are still excited about flying. While I was hoping to find the “Holy Grail” which would transform my skills overnight I did walk away with some common sense ideas to move my flying to the next level. I am typing these in bullet form to better facilitate review in the future. They are in no particular order:

-Safety:
+Safety must remain our number one concern at all times.
+Get your eyes checked. If you’re having trouble seeing the aircraft through maneuvers or just flying around you my just need some specks. If you wear glasses wear them.
+Fly no closer than 15 feet from yourself and perform no tricks closer than 30 feet.
+Never come screaming in at yourself and pulling up (or down), anything can happen and has. Someone overseas had their eyes and nose removed by the rotor disk when their helicopter backed into them. Several people have been injured from flying debris due to mechanical failure and parts flying off due to impact. You cannot be to safe!

-What do you want out of flying?????
+If you’re happy with your flying great, change nothing; fly as much as you wish….
+If you want to improve your flying than it’s going to take work on your part.
+First off, if you have three choppers put 2 away….
+Sims are fine for learning the correct stick movements.
+Practice, I use the term (WORK) no more than 3 flights a day.
+Use discipline in your flight and practice. Be deliberate and control the helicopter, use small inputs.

-Set up:
-10/10 on a governor in all four flight regimes (Period!).
-Straight line pitch curves from -10 to +10, linier, not flatting out the middle.
-Straight line throttle curves in normal. “V” curve for idle up.
-Make sure your idle up (3D mode) has an increase in RPM, that way there will be no mistaking you're in the 3D mode. Normal 1450, 3D 1850 head speed.
-Set your Gyro gain at your flying style. You don’t need a twitchy high gain setting unless you’re losing the tail in backwards flight. Plus this will wear out your tail servo.
-Vibration will also wear out your servo and cause premature failure of other mechanical parts.
-Holding the radio: Fingers or just thumbs what every you are comfortable with as long as you don’t inadvertently input rudder while moving the collective and vice verse…
-20% expo at the most for them..

-3D:
+Always add collective (Pitch) first! (Period). Collective, positive or negative, should be added before cyclic to prevent the helicopter from stopping/stalling/hovering in the middle of a maneuver.

+Manage your power. If you add 10 degrees of collective and push in 5.5 degrees of cyclic you will bog down even a YS91 with 15.5 of overall pitch. In the hands of a pilot that uses power management and collective first the helicopter looks over powered; however, this very same helicopter in the hands of a stick bangger appears under powered with slow response due to poor management of power and inputs. One chief complaints pilots have is “my helicopter needs more power”, so they buy a big block YS80 or OS 90 and still have the problem. It’s not the power plant it's the flying style.

+Your 3D or cool moves will be limited by your foundational experience. You can’t expect to fly around upside down if you can’t hover inverted, right….. You must have total control of your helo at any attitued, altitude, or angle before attempting moves like the pirouetting flip.
+Jason said it took him ONE and a HALF YEARS to perfect the Pirouetting flip and the rest of his flying suffered in the mean time, Yeah sure…Suffering for him is like Tiger Woods getting 16 under par vs. 18 under par.
+Say you want to do a pirouetting circles; break the maneuver down into basic maneuvers.. You must be able to input and make corrections nose in, port out, starboard in, tail in etc… before putting it all together.
+Practice an out….An emergency recovery. Say you’re working on nose in, and you’re up high, if you get spooked add collective and pull out…Practice both ways.
+Always easier to pirouette to the left, unloads the toque. This was not so before HH Gyros.
+Steer the furthers part of the helo, i.e. “nose in” fly the tail, “tail in” fly the nose.. While up right; however, when inverted fly the closest part of the aircraft…
+Use your peripheral vision. Don’t be afraid of smacking into the ground. Judge where your aircraft is in relationship to where you are, the ground, and surrounding landmarks etc..
+As with any vehicle, fly it! Don’t let it fly you. Use control.
+Practice in-flight failures.
+Don’t practice high risk maneuvers on a helicopter you can’t afford to fix.
+Practice (work) up high, give yourself time and room to make corrections. Don’t just “Go for it”.
+When practicing autos bump up the throttle in “Hold” at first and remove it as you become more comfortable. Dip the rotor disk so that air passes through the disk at a 45 horizontally and vertically..

-Equipment:
+Servos and other hardware wear out so preflight, check and recheck.
+The most you can expect from a tail servo is approximately 375 flights….
+Todd has got as much as 1200 flight on a servo, (not tail).

A little about them:
+They burn 100 gallons a years which equates to 800 flights a year. For us weekend warriors that’s about 8 flights on Saturday and 8 on Sunday or two gallons a week…..(not in this life time)
+Traveling school offered by them: 10 guys $200. each for 3 days of flying instruction which includes buddy box flying, helicopter set-up, plus one on one stuff. A bit cheaper if you set it up during a sanctioned event, like a fun-fly. I got the impression you also had to pay the cost of transportation and lodging??
+Do I think it would be worth it??? Well, let me say this, all this text was endowed to us in less than 30 minutes. I couldn’t imagine what I’d pick up in 3 days of instruction….
+Jason has crashed 6 times in the past 3 years with four of those in the past 4 months.
+When asked if he steals tricks from Curtis Youngblood, Jason replied “No he steals them for me” LOL... “Freestyle” is just that “Free, if you see something cool use it, change it and make it your own.” But don’t change your style of flying…
+When asked how it is to be a “Sponsored pilot” both replied “we all paid at one time…..” Todd spent some $10,000 one year on the hobby.

[aerodave]

Thank you very much. Really good stuff. :cool:

[heli-cuzz]

You're welcome, dave.

Now, when do I get to see the DaveWave in action? :D

[aerodave]

LOL! I was just practicing that move 10 minutes ago with a trex in a little park right my my house. Space is tight and the tail got a bit out of shape one time during the half rainbow into backwards inverted part. I did the bail out ok, but in that little area almost hit a friggin tree!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I thought it was pretty funny....

I remember one day I put in a bunch of hours on the sim and grabbed a trex (different one) to get a flight in outside. All that intense orientation work got me in a kind of confused state. I took off, forward fliipped to inverted nose in, corrected wrong and plowed her in! I didn't think that was funny. Probably 'cause it cost a few bucks. I think its funny now, though :D

[heli-cuzz]

I was practicing tic-tocs yesterday with a 2000rpm headspeed. Helifreakintastic that's all I have to say about that, well almost, I love the sound the blades make transitioning through the positive and negative blade pitches.

[heli-cuzz]

LoL

I'm not sure if this is a 3D topic. I was practicing upright pirouette hovering amongst a bunch of other maneuvers. I'm getting better at making necesarry corrections to keep it in one spot. Especially with the 5 to 8 mph wind blowing today. It was the perfect type of wind,but enough to push the heli a bit.

[aerodave]

That most definitely IS a 3D topic. The control and orientation skills you are aquiring will keep you from developing holes in your flying. Way to go. This is much like wht Erich was talking about in his thread. Very good stuff. I prefer the spirit of that concept, learning to draw straight lines, hovering orientations upright and inverted, as opposed to aboping the entire discipline like making it a pursuit ala FAI. Just too fastidious for me. But yeah, I ws doing inverted piros, albiet 100 feet up, today. First time I tried repeated ones with a real heli. you know, as opposed to just doing one quick one and calling it good. Yes. Basics. Yes. Building blocks. Yes. simple elements leading to complex moves.

[heli-cuzz]

I was also practicing inverted hovering. The wife caught me with my nose-in. ;)

[aerodave]

nice pic, man! Everybody left me again today. I had the camera, the knight was flyin great and nobody to take a pic. Gosh, I toasted a trex today. I was doing a VERY fast backwards pass, about 75 feet out and I lost a spindle/blade grip bolt in flight! :eek: The little sucker basically exploded in the air. Actually looked kinda cool. I've been having trouble with orientaton, because I've been working so hard on new things on the sim that in real life I'm getting confused a bit. I mean, it takes me 3 or 4 flights before I feel comfortable again. I know its just a transition, learning to put it all together. I just have to work even harder.

[heli-cuzz]

Sometimes its good not to fly to much. You can get brain overload. I try not to fly more than a half gallon in one day.

[aerodave]

yeah, I've been goin kinda nuts. But not really. Its more of like i said, putting the orientations all together. Learning to flow in and out of each one. But I've been mostly flying trex's close to my house. I'm more interested in glow right now, obviously, great weather and all, so I may back off a bit and just fly at the weekly flys for awhile. I mean there are like 3 a week. Oh, something else, and this relates to the discussion at hand...I'm going to de tune the trex I crashed. Put a 12T pinion and the 43L motor back in it, instead of the 430XL in there now. I want a collective management trainer. The little thing is soooo powerful right now, you can get sloppy with collective and get away with it. Collective management is my next main focus. Have fun flying with the Rappy guy today.

Dave

[heli-cuzz]

I"m working on a new maneuver for me. I'll take it out about 100 yards and flip into a nose-in inverted medium speed FF at a downward angle of about 45 degrees, when the heli is about twenty yards away, add - collective then quickly to zero pitch while simultaneously applying elevator pointing the nose to the sky, then adding rudder input to a vertical rising piro.

[aerodave]

I've tried this move of yours a few times on the sim. nice! I notice lots of folks are using a popup piro as a punctuation in their flying. Often it comes from inverted like you're doing. I've been watching a lot of vids lately and I like that effect. I'm noticing lots of guys do this from backwards inverted. I'm just starting to do backwards inverted with a real heli and its going well, but I'm not ready for the popup piro from that orientation. I could do it from forward inverted, though. I think. I'm going flying tomorrow. I'll try it...... Question: are you going pretty fast when you do the popup?

[heli-cuzz]

I've tried this move of yours a few times on the sim. nice! I notice lots of folks are using a popup piro as a punctuation in their flying. Often it comes from inverted like you're doing. I've been watching a lot of vids lately and I like that effect. I'm noticing lots of guys do this from backwards inverted. I'm just starting to do backwards inverted with a real heli and its going well, but I'm not ready for the popup piro from that orientation. I could do it from forward inverted, though. I think. I'm going flying tomorrow. I'll try it...... Question: are you going pretty fast when you do the popup?

Every manuever I've tried on my real heli has been practiced over and over on the sim before taking it outside. I'd guesstimate my speed to be anywhere from 30 to 40 m.p.h. The first few time in the real I just popped up with no piro. It looks like a half a loop with a flat on the vertical rise, entering nose-in inverted and exiting upright and nose-out. Another thing I love about this lil' pop is the sound of the blades slapping the air. :D
Let me know how it goes if you give it a try. It's a lot easier than it looks.

[aerodave]

My collective management is getting lots better. I just got back from flying and I found myself using lots less collective. Even in tic tocs I didn't need full collective. And I got way better results. Heads not bogging and the heli isn't losing altitude. I changed some stuff on the sim this week. Lowered the headspeed in idle up to 1600 rpm. Made me have to work way harder to get what I needed out of the collective. So now when I fly my heli its soooo much easier. Where's Aaron been? We could use his input sometimes.....

[aerodave]

What are you guys doing on the sim? How do you go about sim practice? I posted my sim thoughts in the simulator forum but feel it is important to this discussion too. So here it is:
I use Realflight G3.5. I used to fly online a bunch but found guys were more into showing off with "optimistic" helis than actually learning something. I have detuned my sim heli to have an idle up headspeed of 1600,as opposed the default of 1850.. This has forced me to learn to employ collective management. For example, when doing a tic toc, its collective to stop and change direction, THEN cyclic to make the arc. If you use both at the same time you'll bog the head for sure. So now I find I need much less collective to perform the move so I bog the head even less. My friends are starting to notice. When the heli would drop before its holding its own or gaining altitude if I desire. I begin each sim session with figure 8s in all 4 orientations. Upright forward, upright backwards, inverted forward and inverted backwards. I strive for consistent altitude and arc in the 8s. I use landscape as markers to make sure I'm doing them semetrically. I'll spend maybe 15 minutes on this. Lately I'm working on piro circles and figure 8s both upright and inverted. I use a half piro flip to switch in the middle of the move. I'm finding pieces of these moves ending up in my real flying. Last night I did upright piros, holding position and transitioned into inverted piros without breaking pace. My friends were impressed! This morning in the park with my trex I did my first piro circles. That's how it goes. Now tonight at the club field I did upright piro circles and then when it got back around to me I was able to half piro flip to inverted and continue piroing (stationary) inverted. So I built on the previous staionary upright piro to inverted by making it a circle. That's how I see the transition from sim to real flying: bit by bit.

[heli-cuzz]

I'm gonna give that a whirl, dave.
I've always worked on collective/cyclic management from the beginning and feel I am doing well with it. I very rarely ever bog my engine.
I was just practicing ti-tocs and stationary backflips in my backyard. :)

[heli-cuzz]

Ok. I worked on this particular manuever last nite on the sim and took it to the field this morning. Aileron tic-tocs in a complete circuit. The norm FFF circuit will take about 30 seconds. Tic-toc'ing around took about one and a half to two minutes. Practicing it on the sim was key to actually ti-toc all the way around a circle of flite.